Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

[Anonymous]

I thought one clever piece of writing that foreshadowed the ending was pointed out by Alexander Skaarsgard in the podcast. At the funeral, someone makes a comment that Tom was not at the funeral because he was busy at work & you can see that Matsson overhears. Contrasted to Logan’s anger at Kendall for abandoning the deal negotiations to attend his birthday party. In the end, Tom was seen as a “serious person.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jessie Armstrong, the show's creator, on the finale:

There was an odd emotional tension. The counterpoint to that was the lovely scene we called ‘Meal Fit For A King’ with that sense of recaptured innocence. Kids just being kids, no matter what their income. Everything seemed possible, and yet…” he said. “My understanding of the show has always been that it’s a tragedy. Therefore, every moment of hope is so cruel, because we’re just waiting for that shoe to drop and waiting for their essential nature to be exposed. To break your heart again.”
“As with Tom’s betrayal at the end of Season 3, everything was always working toward this idea of Sarah’s character of Shiv ultimately sabotaging herself and sabotaging the deal,” Mylod added. “Jesse — I hate this expression — stuck the landing with this climactic showdown, if you like, between the three siblings. The final ripping off of the bandaid to expose that terrible, terrible truth put so simply by Roman — ‘We are bullsh*t’ — was so heartrending, and yet so inevitable. And good tragedy should feel inevitable, shouldn’t it?”
In a reductive, brutal way, Roman ends up exactly where he started. He is that guy still. And he maybe could have easily been a playboy jerk with some slightly nasty instincts and some quite funny jokes. He could have stayed in a bar being that guy, and this has been a bit of a detour in his life, I’d say,” Armstrong said. “Shiv is still in play, I’d say, in a rather terrifying, frozen, emotionally barren place. But she has got this kind of non-victory, non-defeat. I mean there’s gonna be some movement there. There’s still a lot of that game to play out, but that’s where we leave it, and it feels like it’s going to be hard to progress for them emotionally given the things they said to each other. For Kendall, this will never stop being the central event of his life, the central days of his life, central couple of years of his life. Maybe he could go on and start a company…but the chances of achieving the sort of corporate status that dad achieved are very low go, and I think that will mark his whole life.”
https://deadline.com/2023/05/succession-series-finale-hbo-jesse-armstrong-mark-mylod-waystar-ceo-1235382098/

No one disagrees with the point that the show is a tragedy. And we've discussed the fact that Shiv sabotaged herself in sabotaging the deal. First because she was naive with respect to Mattson in back-channeling to sabotage the deal. Obviously he had no intention of rewarding her for that betrayal. Next, as a professional she had more to gain from sticking with her siblings. But she felt that wasn't the right thing to do and Roman summed it up with "we're bullshit...we're nothing." Yes, a tragedy because they were entitled nitwits who played a losing game, betrayed everyone around them multiple times, and ended up winning nothing much except money, when they wanted power and their withholding father's approval.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

No the Colin looking after Kendall thing shows that he is trapped in this life. He will never get out and he will never win. His dad loved the game and loved that Colin kept him safely in the game. Kendall deep down wants out (eg to jump into that river) but he can never escape the game. None of them can.

I think that’s partially true, but it’s also the case that Colin’s presence shows that it’s a two-edged sword. Kendall will never get out, but it’s a gilded cage; his immense privilege will also always protect him from himself and his own failures. Which was part of his problem — he’s never had to earn anything, so he’s never had to become “a serious person.”

I agree with both of you PPs. I thought it was such an interesting choice to have the final scene to be just Kendall and Colin (who overall was a very minor character) but this makes a lot of sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

No the Colin looking after Kendall thing shows that he is trapped in this life. He will never get out and he will never win. His dad loved the game and loved that Colin kept him safely in the game. Kendall deep down wants out (eg to jump into that river) but he can never escape the game. None of them can.

I think that’s partially true, but it’s also the case that Colin’s presence shows that it’s a two-edged sword. Kendall will never get out, but it’s a gilded cage; his immense privilege will also always protect him from himself and his own failures. Which was part of his problem — he’s never had to earn anything, so he’s never had to become “a serious person.”

I agree with both of you PPs. I thought it was such an interesting choice to have the final scene to be just Kendall and Colin (who overall was a very minor character) but this makes a lot of sense.

Was Colin also the one Logan referred to as his best friend? Ultimately this show is about profound loneliness, not uncommon among the very rich.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Since people keep asking about the Pierce deal -- it was a handshake deal predicated on the kids getting a windfall with the GoJo deal. Nothing in writing or in process. They negotiated it at Nan's house and agreed to a number but that's not binding. Literally anything could happen with it at this point -- one of the Roy kids could team up with Stewie to try and make it happen, a total third party coming in.

But also, Succession does have a tendency to drop these thread isn somewhat sloppy ways. They've done it in the past with other business dealings. Things pop up as plot devices and then just disappear without ever being referenced again, even if realistically that's not how it would work.

I agree with all of this - they will still have the windfall from the deal and would be able to buy Pierce, but now their relationships with each other are so broken - or they always were and they were kidding themselves - that they’ll never be able to work on anything together. It does bother me that none of them has ever mentioned it after that episode, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

No one has claimed she's a victim? It's true that she has been screwed over several times by her father, her brothers, Mattson, and now Tom. Those are facts. But of course, she's screwed over plenty of others too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

No one has said "poor Shiv."
DP

Huh? Maybe not in those exact words, but there are posters arguing that Shiv character is purely a victim. To the point that someone upthread responded with a list of all her personal failings and crimes.

Most of the people I see "defending" Shiv are simply defending her final choice to say yes to the deal. Some people seem really upset about that and in particular, some people seem angry on Kendall's behalf because she betrayed him.

I don't think Shiv is a hero and ultimately I don't care whether the show resolved with the GoJo deal going through or not. But I also don't think Kendall is a hero and I think it was pretty much necessary to the arc of the show for him to be denied what he wanted. I don't view it as Shiv betraying him, more her making a decision that made sense to her for a variety of reasons, mostly self interested, while also recognizing that Kendall was also working in his own self-interest.

I'm not "Team" anyone and find that approach to the show a little strange given that pretty much all these people are objectively awful, except some of the more minor characters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

Tom exemplifies the classic "sh*te rolls downhill." He was powerless and incessantly belittled by his wife, so punched down whenever he had the opportunity. I suspect he wouldn't have treated others badly if he wasn't so enraged about his own mistreatment, but who knows for sure. He did seem to genuinely love Shiv, at least at first. Very complicated character. The writing for the two over the past two seasons has been unbelievable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.