Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

Mattson was very cleverly written, because he never promised Shiv anything. He just let her talk and never disagreed with her & she took that as assent. It showed her lack of experience.

It is funny to see all the “poor Shiv” comments. Her father was sexist, but he was terrible to everyone. When he did try to bring her in to the company, she refused to put in the work to try to learn from him, or anyone else. She was arguably the most talented, but hubris did her in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

Ken repeatedly and quite clearly said that he was “ a cog that only fit in one machine.” Not giving him the job quite clearly destroyed him. If the bodyguard hadn’t been with him in the end, he would have committed suicide. She joked about killing hi, amd then destroyed his soul and will to live.

OMG, you have the strangest take. Yes, not giving him the job destroyed Kendall - but that's not why she did it. She was on board with Ken - until the very end, especially when he claimed to have lied about the waiter. She and Roman were JOKING about murdering him in Barbados. It was funny. I can't believe you took that seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My thoughts on all the characters at the end of this —

Kendall: I think he was the most truthful when he started yelling about being the eldest boy. Based on the story of Logan promising him the company at age 7, I think he has truly viewed this as an absolute birth right his whole life. It was never a battle of who should be CEO for him, but always defending what was already his.

Roman: Deep down he’s the most family oriented in his own messed up way. It’s why he was talking to Logan even with the others weren’t. It’s why he went to his mom’s in Barbados. He wanted power for himself in theory, but could also easily be swayed trying to keep some semblance of family peace. I think in a perverse way even Gerri was a mother figure to him, which is why he couldn’t be around her at the end.

Shiv: it’s been said a ton but she was always out for herself and I think the inherent sexism in her industry made her scrappier. However, I actually think Tom getting the CEO position may be the only thing that could save their marriage. He is now actually closer to her equal and she knows deep down he was right when he told her she would have done it to him. Even the day before she had been telling Matsson she could take or leave Tom still having a job and that he would suck d!ck to stay there. I don’t think she had much respect for him.

Tom: I get why he took the CEO position. A couple seasons ago he never would have done that to her, let alone while she was carrying his child. But even her attempt at reconciliation brought up scheduling and whatnot. I think their (sort of) holding hands was an olive branch at the end. She wasn’t ready to 100% jump into a normal relationship, but she got in the car with him and put her hand out too. Maybe with distance from her family and a more even power dynamic these two can make it work.

Greg: proved himself to be the weasel we all knew. I’m not going to lie, at first I thought his translation app was brilliant. People underestimate him. If the siblings had pulled off taking over the company then it would have been a brilliant bet on the right horse. I also think he really wanted to be in on the “quad.” As a side note, I love when Tom put the sticker on him. I think deep down Tom knows he and Greg are cut from the same cloth, Tom just maneuvered better.

Connor: oh how I loved his silly system for dividing up his father’s belongings. And the siblings’ mockery with acronyms was perfect. Willa looked horrified that they may not live separate lives after all, but I’m still sort of rooting for them.

I kinda wish there had been 10 more minutes to the episode to do a flash forward, but I guess it’s fun to leave things open to interpretation.

I 100% agree with all of the above! Except that Conor is actually the eldest boy. Granted, he never wanted anything to do with the company, but technically he is the oldest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My thoughts on all the characters at the end of this —

Kendall: I think he was the most truthful when he started yelling about being the eldest boy. Based on the story of Logan promising him the company at age 7, I think he has truly viewed this as an absolute birth right his whole life. It was never a battle of who should be CEO for him, but always defending what was already his.

Roman: Deep down he’s the most family oriented in his own messed up way. It’s why he was talking to Logan even with the others weren’t. It’s why he went to his mom’s in Barbados. He wanted power for himself in theory, but could also easily be swayed trying to keep some semblance of family peace. I think in a perverse way even Gerri was a mother figure to him, which is why he couldn’t be around her at the end.

Shiv: it’s been said a ton but she was always out for herself and I think the inherent sexism in her industry made her scrappier. However, I actually think Tom getting the CEO position may be the only thing that could save their marriage. He is now actually closer to her equal and she knows deep down he was right when he told her she would have done it to him. Even the day before she had been telling Matsson she could take or leave Tom still having a job and that he would suck d!ck to stay there. I don’t think she had much respect for him.

Tom: I get why he took the CEO position. A couple seasons ago he never would have done that to her, let alone while she was carrying his child. But even her attempt at reconciliation brought up scheduling and whatnot. I think their (sort of) holding hands was an olive branch at the end. She wasn’t ready to 100% jump into a normal relationship, but she got in the car with him and put her hand out too. Maybe with distance from her family and a more even power dynamic these two can make it work.

Greg: proved himself to be the weasel we all knew. I’m not going to lie, at first I thought his translation app was brilliant. People underestimate him. If the siblings had pulled off taking over the company then it would have been a brilliant bet on the right horse. I also think he really wanted to be in on the “quad.” As a side note, I love when Tom put the sticker on him. I think deep down Tom knows he and Greg are cut from the same cloth, Tom just maneuvered better.

Connor: oh how I loved his silly system for dividing up his father’s belongings. And the siblings’ mockery with acronyms was perfect. Willa looked horrified that they may not live separate lives after all, but I’m still sort of rooting for them.

I kinda wish there had been 10 more minutes to the episode to do a flash forward, but I guess it’s fun to leave things open to interpretation.

OMG Willa's prospect of living alone in the $60m Manhattan mansion decorated to her taste. So close, lol!

The look on Willa’s face when she found out Connor might not get the ambassadorship after all may have been my favorite single moment in the entire episode.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Tom hates her and initially rejected her attempt at reconciliation earlier in the episode. He’s only with her in exchange for her vote.

DP but he already had her vote by the time he told her about the car waiting and held out his hand. He was the one to proffer some reconciliation once he was CEO.

I agree with PPs that both sides now see the possibility of salvaging the relationship with more equal power balance on both sides. He was always more committed to having children. Noone would ever envision a smooth path for these two, but at least there is a viable possibility. Her reluctance to fully take his hand brilliantly conveyed her ambivalence about all of it.

+1
In her twisted way, I actually think she had more respect for Tom after finding out he had been chosen as CEO instead of her. As he said, it's what she would have done to him (screwed him over) and this is completely true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

Good question. What happened to the Pierce deal?

At one point in Barbados, I think, Shiv floats the idea of letting the GoJo deal go through and proceeding with their previous plans, but the boys dismiss it. They could, theoretically, acquire Pierce with the proceeds from the GoJo deal, but that would require them to work together and that doesn’t look likely. In any case, the idea of them building/acquiring their own media empire was even more far fetched than taking over Waystar, and that was always a fantasy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My thoughts on all the characters at the end of this —

Kendall: I think he was the most truthful when he started yelling about being the eldest boy. Based on the story of Logan promising him the company at age 7, I think he has truly viewed this as an absolute birth right his whole life. It was never a battle of who should be CEO for him, but always defending what was already his.

Roman: Deep down he’s the most family oriented in his own messed up way. It’s why he was talking to Logan even with the others weren’t. It’s why he went to his mom’s in Barbados. He wanted power for himself in theory, but could also easily be swayed trying to keep some semblance of family peace. I think in a perverse way even Gerri was a mother figure to him, which is why he couldn’t be around her at the end.

Shiv: it’s been said a ton but she was always out for herself and I think the inherent sexism in her industry made her scrappier. However, I actually think Tom getting the CEO position may be the only thing that could save their marriage. He is now actually closer to her equal and she knows deep down he was right when he told her she would have done it to him. Even the day before she had been telling Matsson she could take or leave Tom still having a job and that he would suck d!ck to stay there. I don’t think she had much respect for him.

Tom: I get why he took the CEO position. A couple seasons ago he never would have done that to her, let alone while she was carrying his child. But even her attempt at reconciliation brought up scheduling and whatnot. I think their (sort of) holding hands was an olive branch at the end. She wasn’t ready to 100% jump into a normal relationship, but she got in the car with him and put her hand out too. Maybe with distance from her family and a more even power dynamic these two can make it work.

Greg: proved himself to be the weasel we all knew. I’m not going to lie, at first I thought his translation app was brilliant. People underestimate him. If the siblings had pulled off taking over the company then it would have been a brilliant bet on the right horse. I also think he really wanted to be in on the “quad.” As a side note, I love when Tom put the sticker on him. I think deep down Tom knows he and Greg are cut from the same cloth, Tom just maneuvered better.

Connor: oh how I loved his silly system for dividing up his father’s belongings. And the siblings’ mockery with acronyms was perfect. Willa looked horrified that they may not live separate lives after all, but I’m still sort of rooting for them.

I kinda wish there had been 10 more minutes to the episode to do a flash forward, but I guess it’s fun to leave things open to interpretation.

OMG Willa's prospect of living alone in the $60m Manhattan mansion decorated to her taste. So close, lol!

The look on Willa’s face when she found out Connor might not get the ambassadorship after all may have been my favorite single moment in the entire episode.

It was one of mine too!!! Especially how she said they were excited to see how the long distance thing might spice up their marriage as their marriage goes on. They’ve been married like 2 weeks!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pierces - couldn’t happen to a better bunch of self-righteous rich people masquerading as do-gooders.

But what *did* happen with the Pierces? That wasn't clear at all. Weren't the siblings planning to buy them out if the sale went through?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think Shiv saved all of them. Staying with the company would have destroyed all of them, this leaves space for them to save themselves and chart a real life.

Agreed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

Ken repeatedly and quite clearly said that he was “ a cog that only fit in one machine.” Not giving him the job quite clearly destroyed him. If the bodyguard hadn’t been with him in the end, he would have committed suicide. She joked about killing hi, amd then destroyed his soul and will to live.

OMG, you have the strangest take. Yes, not giving him the job destroyed Kendall - but that's not why she did it. She was on board with Ken - until the very end, especially when he claimed to have lied about the waiter. She and Roman were JOKING about murdering him in Barbados. It was funny. I can't believe you took that seriously.

They were half joking, the scene was intended to show how ingrain their resentment over him being raised the presumptive heir was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was pulling for Kendall up until he lied about killing the waiter. He instantly turned into a petulant child. Roman knew they were all a pathetic joke at that moment. Shiv knew to cut and run.

+1
That was a very interesting scene. I actually gasped!

I agree, it was shocking. I do think Shiv was anxiously trying to think it through, and that sealed it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think Shiv saved all of them. Staying with the company would have destroyed all of them, this leaves space for them to save themselves and chart a real life.

Agreed.

Perhaps you should read more from the writers and actors in the show then, that is not the intended take away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

PP here and I don't know if Shiv has a capacity for love. I think it could go either way -- anyone can choose at any time to be a better person. Becoming a parent can change you. She could also just be a cold and distant mom like her own mother.

But my bigger point is that she didn't give up anything real in voting for the deal. It's not like she was going to have ANY power with Kendall at the helm. What does she have from him? A promise of some kind of role. Kendall is a drug addict who has abandoned his own children, who walked away from a dead waiter because it was easier than dealing with the consequences, who regularly plots against his family to amass more power for himself. Would YOU trust him?

She wasn't going to get anything either way. I think she genuinely just realized that Kendall would be a mess as CEO and while she hates Tom and he and Matsson screwed her over, probably the company would be better served by their leadership. I think it was a rational choice.

Well, you aren’t watching the same show as the rest of us. Perhaps Ken would be a horrible CEO, but that wasn’t why Shiv wouldn’t vote for him. If she couldn’t have the position, she was going to make sure her sibling with whom she had competed her entire life wouldn’t have it either. Nothing more. The only meaningful relationship any of the three younger siblings had was with one another, and she destroyed that. It’s suppose to be a tragedy.

DP. I agree with the PP. It kind of seems like YOU are watching a completely different show than the rest of us.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

Good question. What happened to the Pierce deal?

At one point in Barbados, I think, Shiv floats the idea of letting the GoJo deal go through and proceeding with their previous plans, but the boys dismiss it. They could, theoretically, acquire Pierce with the proceeds from the GoJo deal, but that would require them to work together and that doesn’t look likely. In any case, the idea of them building/acquiring their own media empire was even more far fetched than taking over Waystar, and that was always a fantasy.

Shiv never suggests that, her mother does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.