Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think some people like shiv so they want to justify her actions. Her choice wasn’t predicated on dollars, it was much more primitive emotions. Similar to how she stabbed Ken in the back just an episode prior. Her choice was sibling loyalty or keeping a rival from power. If it was dollars and cents driven, she would never have agreed to support Ken the night prior.

I do not like Shiv, but I don't think she voted yes on the deal to "keep a rival from power." I mean, at this point Tom is a rival and her vote made him CEO of Waystar US, a role that had been promised to her.

I also don't think it was a financial choice -- she doesn't really need the extra money the GoJo deal will net her.

I think it was a calculated choice based on what was best for her, personally, as well as what she think is best for Kendall and the company. For most of the season, Shiv has been firmly in favor of the GoJo deal. She has spoken several times about being done with Waystar and especially ATN. She really liked the idea of the Pierce deal. She only ever got on board with Kendall and Roman to tank the GoJo deal because she was so mad at Matsson for cutting her out -- THAT was a purely emotional decision. I think once she was thinking about the decision while sitting in a board room in New York, she reverted back to her previous position that she is just over it -- over Waystar, over the sibling rivalry, over the constant drive to prove something to her dad.

Shiv is an entitled ahole like the rest of them, but I think she's probably the most intelligent Roy sibling. The irony is that no one, including Logan, ever took her seriously as a potential successor, but her brothers are all much more volatile and emotional than she is. She's the only one of them who ever built a career outside Waystar that could actually be considered successful or meaningful. I think that helped her to see that they are all better off just moving on. The company does not offer them anything but grief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m amazed at the comments at “the men who betrayed her” - have you all forgotten her wedding night????

And maneuvering Kendall going to prison.

And Tom going to prison (she didn’t even react when Geri announced to the group that there would be no prison time! Her first comment was about strategy!)

Threatening Gerri’s career (and Roman) with his D@&k pics. She was willing to threaten another woman’s career to advance her own!!

It’s not like she was an innocent in all this - she betrayed other characters long before they started giving back in kind. She was willing all along to betray literally anyone who stood in her way - her brothers, her Dad, her husband, Geri - she in fact did betray everyone.

Very true. In fact, in this last episode, we see her sucking up to Mattson, and telling him horrible things about Tom - that he would "suck the biggest d!ck" in the room (meaning he is a huge sycophant), and that it would be fine with her if Mattson decided to let him go. She had ZERO loyalty to Tom. I knew from those scenes alone that Mattson was going to axe her. She was far too cocky and over-confident.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

+1
I couldn't figure out why Greg chose to warn Shiv about not getting CEO. I thought his loyalties were with Tom?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

Tom's pretty stupid.

DP. I disagree. Tom, while odious, played his part well. I think Mattson was testing him by telling him he wanted to f*ck his wife, to see how he'd react. Anyone with even a shred of integrity would have stood up and walked out. Instead, Tom stays quiet and takes the humiliation because that is what he needs to do to get ahead. That was smart, if awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was pulling for Kendall up until he lied about killing the waiter. He instantly turned into a petulant child. Roman knew they were all a pathetic joke at that moment. Shiv knew to cut and run.

+1
That was a very interesting scene. I actually gasped!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On which podcast does Strong explain the ending?

HBO’s Succession podcast

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

How so?

To me the ending shows how they are all miserable and always were and always will be. I think the truest part of the whole show was Roman saying “this is nothing, we are nothing” during the fight during the board meeting. None of them deserve it, none of them really even want it except to try and prove something, and it isn’t even something worth wanting anyway. It’s shallow and meaningless and it will not fill the hole in their hearts.

She’s the one who destroyed the relationship among the siblings and literally almost murdered her brother. And she remained in a marriage with a man who detests her.

What does this mean?
DP

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

I think the actress communicated a warmer underbelly, with fleeting moments of warmth toward Tom and even the desire to keep the child, not a particularly rational choice under the circumstances. The rapprochement with the mom also seemed nice, and genuine. The first time we saw her behave like an actual mother. Bullying father and absent mother informed her apparent incapacity for love, but I thought there was some evidence it could develop.

+1
And we see a fleeting shot of her on the patio in Barbados, stroking her belly. I also think she genuinely loves her brothers. I love the scene in the kitchen when they're all acting goofy together.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

Disagree. She was the only one being rational versus emotional. None of the siblings could do the job. Logan knew it, and she understood that in the end.

Completely disagree she changed her vote because she, in the end, couldn’t bear to see Ken get the job she felt should be hers.

Didn't see that communicated anywhere in the dialogue.

Maybe you missed the scene were she “joked” with Roman about killing Ken. Probably the most significant scene of the finale.

DP. What? That actually WAS a joke. You thought they were serious?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

+1
I couldn't figure out why Greg chose to warn Shiv about not getting CEO. I thought his loyalties were with Tom?

Greg was playing both sides.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

Yes - he re-opened the wound on Roman's head as a show of force.

That was so disturbing, I was freaking out. It was possible to see Roman's sleazy veneer as masking a good core, for a time. Beneath it all he seemed the most sensitive and most caring toward his parents, and the most broken by the family dysfunction. But his behavior toward Gerri and then the election manipulation? Eff him.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

How so?

To me the ending shows how they are all miserable and always were and always will be. I think the truest part of the whole show was Roman saying “this is nothing, we are nothing” during the fight during the board meeting. None of them deserve it, none of them really even want it except to try and prove something, and it isn’t even something worth wanting anyway. It’s shallow and meaningless and it will not fill the hole in their hearts.

She’s the one who destroyed the relationship among the siblings and literally almost murdered her brother. And she remained in a marriage with a man who detests her.

What does this mean?
DP

Nothin, the PP claimed that Shiv's decision not to anoint Kendall as CEO was like killing him because she should have understood that he'd become suicidal if he didn't get it. It's a dumb argument. Shiv isn't responsible for the fact that Kendall can't imagine a future for himself that doesn't involve taking over daddy's company -- that's Kendall's problem. He's a 40 year old man and he isn't entitled to control of a multi-billion dollar company just because he's decided it's the key to his personal happiness. OMG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree Shiv voted to tank the deal because she couldn't stomach seeing Kendall get the job.

It was not a rational decision at all. I don't buy she all of a sudden she would align with the man (Mattson) who just screwed her over. This was an emotional decision - she had this one last chance to control things and tank Kendall's chance to be CEO.

Shiv spitting in Kendalls drink game at the end says it all.

I don't think you understand what a joke is. That was a game to put all the most disgusting ingredients together and force the "king" to drink it. Obviously, it was something they had played before. She spit in it right in front of him. I thought it was hilarious.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

PP here and I don't know if Shiv has a capacity for love. I think it could go either way -- anyone can choose at any time to be a better person. Becoming a parent can change you. She could also just be a cold and distant mom like her own mother.

But my bigger point is that she didn't give up anything real in voting for the deal. It's not like she was going to have ANY power with Kendall at the helm. What does she have from him? A promise of some kind of role. Kendall is a drug addict who has abandoned his own children, who walked away from a dead waiter because it was easier than dealing with the consequences, who regularly plots against his family to amass more power for himself. Would YOU trust him?

She wasn't going to get anything either way. I think she genuinely just realized that Kendall would be a mess as CEO and while she hates Tom and he and Matsson screwed her over, probably the company would be better served by their leadership. I think it was a rational choice.

Well, you aren’t watching the same show as the rest of us. Perhaps Ken would be a horrible CEO, but that wasn’t why Shiv wouldn’t vote for him. If she couldn’t have the position, she was going to make sure her sibling with whom she had competed her entire life wouldn’t have it either. Nothing more. The only meaningful relationship any of the three younger siblings had was with one another, and she destroyed that. It’s suppose to be a tragedy.

DP. I agree with the PP. It kind of seems like YOU are watching a completely different show than the rest of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Colin looking out for Kendall is like a last gift from Logan. Colin is doing it out of his affection for Logan.

Why can’t the Pierce deal still go through? Aren’t the kids under contract with Pierce?

No the Colin looking after Kendall thing shows that he is trapped in this life. He will never get out and he will never win. His dad loved the game and loved that Colin kept him safely in the game. Kendall deep down wants out (eg to jump into that river) but he can never escape the game. None of them can.