APS - new CIP proposal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I ask again, how are MS seats desperately needed? Didn't we JUST open a new MS?

Yes, but they opted to reduce the size by 300 seats after the original proposal, because then it would’ve been larger than the other MS. So now we either build option seats, or make a less wealthy MS take on the burden of an additional 300 students. Painted ourselves into a corner with this one.

So, for equity reasons, these have to be option seats. My concern is that they have chosen 1) a program that requires previous experience (Montessori, you bet their PAC won’t want the “integrity” of the program diluted by allowing kids without ES Montessori experience to be admitted) and hasn’t demonstrated growth or a desire that isn’t being met currently and 2) a program that has only existed as a HS to date. To me, the latter is less objectionable than the former, in terms of actually alleviating crowding at neighborhood MS, because it will be open to any ES applicant, and I can imagine that if they had nice facilities and not just a parking lot full of trailers this program would become as attractive as HB for 6-12. I see absolutely no benefit to the system or to addressing overcrowding by expanding the MS Montessori program, nor to expanding ES Montessori nor consolidating all Pre-K Montessori seats on this site.

I agree. A few random thoughts.

1) Arlington Tech definitely needs better facilities and probably can expand, including adding a middle school program. I'm concerned about the size they are proposing though. It seems much bigger than HB Woodlawn and realistically, that it would take several years to onboard kids and grow to that size. And then it will be a very large program on a very small and crowded campus. HB Woodlawn could not grow, according to its boosters, and that claim was honored by APS. This huge school all at once plan seems like a big risk.

2) Why not develop a consolidated immersion K-12 program, rather than Montessori? There is more demand, it already exists K-12, and it there is room for growth. If we go with the proposed plan, there won't be any money left over to accomplish anything for immersion. I don't have any kids in immersion, it just seems like a better focus than Montessori, which is so niche.

3) Montessori middle school in APS is not thriving. There is no basis for spending a huge amount of money to expand it. It is a tiny number of students at Gunston, so the idea that it will relieve capacity there is misleading. Truth is, Maria Montessori did not develop her educational program for secondary students. Some have tried to take her pedagogy and build it out to secondary school, but usually the programs involve running a farm or a business. The Montessori program at APS does not do a good job of following the pedagogy, even in elementary school. The program should be strengthened before it is expanded. And consolidating all the pre-K classes onto one site does not serve the community well. Right now, they can be moved around as needed to balance capacity and allow people around the county to access them more easily. How many families will want their 3-year old on a preK-12 mega-campus many miles from their house?

I have personally clashed with the immersion people and find some of them to be deeply irritating… and I totally agree that if you’re going to build a consolidated program it should be immersion rather than Montessori. No one wants more Montessori middle school.

How many kids are in the montessori middle school program? I also wonder how many are there to get out of their regular middle school and not because they are really into the program? The few I have known are in this category.

I think there are about 37 in the middle school program, based on the student transfer data and my interpretation of it.
They don't opt for Montessori MS to avoid their assigned MS (unless they are really looking far ahead). They're opting in at elementary to avoid their elementary schools. You can't jump into Montessori mid-way.
In fact, I think many drop out of Montessori heading into middle school in order to avoid going to Gunston, as well as other reasons such as the distance to Gunston and wanting to join their neighborhood friends in middle school and high school. There's really not much point to Montessori middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I ask again, how are MS seats desperately needed? Didn't we JUST open a new MS?

Yes, but they opted to reduce the size by 300 seats after the original proposal, because then it would’ve been larger than the other MS. So now we either build option seats, or make a less wealthy MS take on the burden of an additional 300 students. Painted ourselves into a corner with this one.

So, for equity reasons, these have to be option seats. My concern is that they have chosen 1) a program that requires previous experience (Montessori, you bet their PAC won’t want the “integrity” of the program diluted by allowing kids without ES Montessori experience to be admitted) and hasn’t demonstrated growth or a desire that isn’t being met currently and 2) a program that has only existed as a HS to date. To me, the latter is less objectionable than the former, in terms of actually alleviating crowding at neighborhood MS, because it will be open to any ES applicant, and I can imagine that if they had nice facilities and not just a parking lot full of trailers this program would become as attractive as HB for 6-12. I see absolutely no benefit to the system or to addressing overcrowding by expanding the MS Montessori program, nor to expanding ES Montessori nor consolidating all Pre-K Montessori seats on this site.

I agree. A few random thoughts.

1) Arlington Tech definitely needs better facilities and probably can expand, including adding a middle school program. I'm concerned about the size they are proposing though. It seems much bigger than HB Woodlawn and realistically, that it would take several years to onboard kids and grow to that size. And then it will be a very large program on a very small and crowded campus. HB Woodlawn could not grow, according to its boosters, and that claim was honored by APS. This huge school all at once plan seems like a big risk.

2) Why not develop a consolidated immersion K-12 program, rather than Montessori? There is more demand, it already exists K-12, and it there is room for growth. If we go with the proposed plan, there won't be any money left over to accomplish anything for immersion. I don't have any kids in immersion, it just seems like a better focus than Montessori, which is so niche.

3) Montessori middle school in APS is not thriving. There is no basis for spending a huge amount of money to expand it. It is a tiny number of students at Gunston, so the idea that it will relieve capacity there is misleading. Truth is, Maria Montessori did not develop her educational program for secondary students. Some have tried to take her pedagogy and build it out to secondary school, but usually the programs involve running a farm or a business. The Montessori program at APS does not do a good job of following the pedagogy, even in elementary school. The program should be strengthened before it is expanded. And consolidating all the pre-K classes onto one site does not serve the community well. Right now, they can be moved around as needed to balance capacity and allow people around the county to access them more easily. How many families will want their 3-year old on a preK-12 mega-campus many miles from their house?

I have personally clashed with the immersion people and find some of them to be deeply irritating… and I totally agree that if you’re going to build a consolidated program it should be immersion rather than Montessori. No one wants more Montessori middle school.

How many kids are enrolled in MS and HS immersion now?

I don't know about HS; but there are about 270 at Gunston MS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They're not going to expand immersion when they just slashed the entering K classes for 2021-2022.

They could merge the existing two programs and grow the secondary program with a K-8 facility or consolidating it all on one site...like Montessori finally successfully advocated for. At least immersion would be justified for such a plan. It would also open up about 300 MS seats in S Arlington as well as some high school seats at Wakefield.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I ask again, how are MS seats desperately needed? Didn't we JUST open a new MS?

Yes, but they opted to reduce the size by 300 seats after the original proposal, because then it would’ve been larger than the other MS. So now we either build option seats, or make a less wealthy MS take on the burden of an additional 300 students. Painted ourselves into a corner with this one.

So, for equity reasons, these have to be option seats. My concern is that they have chosen 1) a program that requires previous experience (Montessori, you bet their PAC won’t want the “integrity” of the program diluted by allowing kids without ES Montessori experience to be admitted) and hasn’t demonstrated growth or a desire that isn’t being met currently and 2) a program that has only existed as a HS to date. To me, the latter is less objectionable than the former, in terms of actually alleviating crowding at neighborhood MS, because it will be open to any ES applicant, and I can imagine that if they had nice facilities and not just a parking lot full of trailers this program would become as attractive as HB for 6-12. I see absolutely no benefit to the system or to addressing overcrowding by expanding the MS Montessori program, nor to expanding ES Montessori nor consolidating all Pre-K Montessori seats on this site.

This is nonsense.
What is your logic that a less wealthy MS would have to take on the burden of an additional 300 seats instead of a wealthier one?! Where does that idea even come from?
An addition could be managed at one of the wealthy middle schools just as well as at one of the others - but without the academic impacts on ELL and underprivileged students.
They can add on to Hamm to make it the 1300 seats they originally planned (and knew they needed at the time but - per usual weak "leadership" - caved to the community's crying foul)
Also, there is a significant difference between a wealthy (Hamm/Williamsburg type) middle school being 300 students larger than a poor (Kenmore/TJ type) middle school being 300 students larger.

Additional MS seats absolutely do NOT have to be option seats. APS needs to accept the most obvious answer: use the Kenmore site and create a MS/HS campus and move middle and high school immersion there.

Oh, but they will, and you and I both know it. If a MS has to grow, it’s not going to be one that has successfully fought it within the short term. They’ve already done design studies for Kenmore and Gunston, where the parents rarely fight back. If they make them neighborhood seats, it will be at one of these two schools. Easier for them to just declare them option. The STUPID part is making even a single one of them Montessori. Nobody wants Montessori MS seats. If they build it, they won’t come. It would make more sense and more space if they move Immersion seats from Gunston instead to the ATS campus and make it a Pre-K-8 Immersion site there. Move the one Montessori MS class to the Henry building, move out a Pre-K class to a satellite where they have excess space, and build Arl Tech to 800-1000 6-12th grade. Done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2019-20 Gunston had 273 Immersion transfers and 36 Montessori transfers from outside Gunston boundaries. Wakefield had 69 Immersion transfers from outside its boundaries. I'm not sure where to find the actual program totals, I'll look a little for those. The numbers will be a bigger than just the transfers obviously.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-2020_APS-Transfer-Report-All-Parts.pdf

Thanks! I'm all for more choice programs for secondary. Without great demand for secondary immersion/Montessori, maybe we should return to the idea of a secondary choice program for arts. Recall seeing that mentioned a few years ago. Not sure what happened to that.

I also wonder if there are any wait lists for secondary immersion and montessori?

According to the CIP "Staff Response to School Board Questions" document on the APS website, there are currently 37 Montessori middle school students, down from 90 at its peak. It has been shrinking not growing. I think the CIP proposes up to 175 Montessori middle schools students. That seems very unrealistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2019-20 Gunston had 273 Immersion transfers and 36 Montessori transfers from outside Gunston boundaries. Wakefield had 69 Immersion transfers from outside its boundaries. I'm not sure where to find the actual program totals, I'll look a little for those. The numbers will be a bigger than just the transfers obviously.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-2020_APS-Transfer-Report-All-Parts.pdf

Thanks! I'm all for more choice programs for secondary. Without great demand for secondary immersion/Montessori, maybe we should return to the idea of a secondary choice program for arts. Recall seeing that mentioned a few years ago. Not sure what happened to that.

I also wonder if there are any wait lists for secondary immersion and montessori?

According to the CIP "Staff Response to School Board Questions" document on the APS website, there are currently 37 Montessori middle school students, down from 90 at its peak. It has been shrinking not growing. I think the CIP proposes up to 175 Montessori middle schools students. That seems very unrealistic.

So it’s correct that their plan isn’t based on objective reality and the s a result of direct lobbying from the Montessori PAC, all of which happened out of public view.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I ask again, how are MS seats desperately needed? Didn't we JUST open a new MS?

Yes, but they opted to reduce the size by 300 seats after the original proposal, because then it would’ve been larger than the other MS. So now we either build option seats, or make a less wealthy MS take on the burden of an additional 300 students. Painted ourselves into a corner with this one.

So, for equity reasons, these have to be option seats. My concern is that they have chosen 1) a program that requires previous experience (Montessori, you bet their PAC won’t want the “integrity” of the program diluted by allowing kids without ES Montessori experience to be admitted) and hasn’t demonstrated growth or a desire that isn’t being met currently and 2) a program that has only existed as a HS to date. To me, the latter is less objectionable than the former, in terms of actually alleviating crowding at neighborhood MS, because it will be open to any ES applicant, and I can imagine that if they had nice facilities and not just a parking lot full of trailers this program would become as attractive as HB for 6-12. I see absolutely no benefit to the system or to addressing overcrowding by expanding the MS Montessori program, nor to expanding ES Montessori nor consolidating all Pre-K Montessori seats on this site.

This is nonsense.
What is your logic that a less wealthy MS would have to take on the burden of an additional 300 seats instead of a wealthier one?! Where does that idea even come from?
An addition could be managed at one of the wealthy middle schools just as well as at one of the others - but without the academic impacts on ELL and underprivileged students.
They can add on to Hamm to make it the 1300 seats they originally planned (and knew they needed at the time but - per usual weak "leadership" - caved to the community's crying foul)
Also, there is a significant difference between a wealthy (Hamm/Williamsburg type) middle school being 300 students larger than a poor (Kenmore/TJ type) middle school being 300 students larger.

Additional MS seats absolutely do NOT have to be option seats. APS needs to accept the most obvious answer: use the Kenmore site and create a MS/HS campus and move middle and high school immersion there.

Oh, but they will, and you and I both know it. If a MS has to grow, it’s not going to be one that has successfully fought it within the short term. They’ve already done design studies for Kenmore and Gunston, where the parents rarely fight back. If they make them neighborhood seats, it will be at one of these two schools. Easier for them to just declare them option. The STUPID part is making even a single one of them Montessori. Nobody wants Montessori MS seats. If they build it, they won’t come. It would make more sense and more space if they move Immersion seats from Gunston instead to the ATS campus and make it a Pre-K-8 Immersion site there. Move the one Montessori MS class to the Henry building, move out a Pre-K class to a satellite where they have excess space, and build Arl Tech to 800-1000 6-12th grade. Done.

I agree this would be a much better, cheaper, and faster plan. And then down the road, built out Kenmore to have an arts focused middle school / high school program within the school. Not a single penny should be spent on Montessori middle school. I think the program should be ended once Arlington Tech gets built out as a 6-12 program. Montessori elementary and Campbell's program can both feed into Arlington Tech (if the students choose, but I don't think they should have preference).

How many acres is the ATS campus compared to the Career Center campus (not counting the MPSA side)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2019-20 Gunston had 273 Immersion transfers and 36 Montessori transfers from outside Gunston boundaries. Wakefield had 69 Immersion transfers from outside its boundaries. I'm not sure where to find the actual program totals, I'll look a little for those. The numbers will be a bigger than just the transfers obviously.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-2020_APS-Transfer-Report-All-Parts.pdf

Thanks! I'm all for more choice programs for secondary. Without great demand for secondary immersion/Montessori, maybe we should return to the idea of a secondary choice program for arts. Recall seeing that mentioned a few years ago. Not sure what happened to that.

I also wonder if there are any wait lists for secondary immersion and montessori?

According to the CIP "Staff Response to School Board Questions" document on the APS website, there are currently 37 Montessori middle school students, down from 90 at its peak. It has been shrinking not growing. I think the CIP proposes up to 175 Montessori middle schools students. That seems very unrealistic.

So it’s correct that their plan isn’t based on objective reality and the s a result of direct lobbying from the Montessori PAC, all of which happened out of public view.

Of course it is. It's so obviously the work of Monique O'Grady. It was her main purpose in joining the school board. Montessori, despite MO's repetitive insistence "Montessori will move anywhere," was not satisfied with being moved to Patrick Henry. And their criticisms of the building didn't hide that fact. It was good enough for a Blue Ribbon school; but it's not good enough for Montessori.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In 2019-20 Gunston had 273 Immersion transfers and 36 Montessori transfers from outside Gunston boundaries. Wakefield had 69 Immersion transfers from outside its boundaries. I'm not sure where to find the actual program totals, I'll look a little for those. The numbers will be a bigger than just the transfers obviously.

https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2019-2020_APS-Transfer-Report-All-Parts.pdf

Thanks! I'm all for more choice programs for secondary. Without great demand for secondary immersion/Montessori, maybe we should return to the idea of a secondary choice program for arts. Recall seeing that mentioned a few years ago. Not sure what happened to that.

I also wonder if there are any wait lists for secondary immersion and montessori?

According to the CIP "Staff Response to School Board Questions" document on the APS website, there are currently 37 Montessori middle school students, down from 90 at its peak. It has been shrinking not growing. I think the CIP proposes up to 175 Montessori middle schools students. That seems very unrealistic.

So it’s correct that their plan isn’t based on objective reality and the s a result of direct lobbying from the Montessori PAC, all of which happened out of public view.

Of course it is. It's so obviously the work of Monique O'Grady. It was her main purpose in joining the school board. Montessori, despite MO's repetitive insistence "Montessori will move anywhere," was not satisfied with being moved to Patrick Henry. And their criticisms of the building didn't hide that fact. It was good enough for a Blue Ribbon school; but it's not good enough for Montessori.

I think Montessori's original goal was to get a brand new pre-K through 8th building constructed for them at the VHC/Carlin Springs site, so at least they aren't getting that?

[Anonymous]

I saw on AEM only 30 people have even emailed the board about this CIP. Is that true? Have any of you? What a mess.

[Anonymous]

MO said at the public hearing that APS has received 30 comments and about 5 people showed up to speak. There’s no way this CIP doesn’t pass, although from social media people in general don’t seem to like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They're not going to expand immersion when they just slashed the entering K classes for 2021-2022.

They didn't slash the entering K classes because they aren't willing to expand immersion. They push to reduce the K classes at the immersion schools came from the immersion school PTAs because the schools were overcrowded. I know Claremont has been fighting to get to 4 classes for the past 6 years. I can only speak for Claremont, but the school was just very overcrowded. We couldn't even hold our 4th and 5th grade winter concert anymore because it violated the fire code, kids were getting pull out instruction in stairwells or closets. Then you had issues with kids not being able to go to the library or cramming 850 students and teachers into a basement for tornado drills. Anyway, it was an effort to ease overcrowding at the school NOT a sign that they are reducing the immersion program. The plan shouldn't be to just cram as many students possible into a building in an effort to support immersion if it reduces the quality of education for everyone there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MO said at the public hearing that APS has received 30 comments and about 5 people showed up to speak. There’s no way this CIP doesn’t pass, although from social media people in general don’t seem to like it.

Everyone knows it's a waste of time and energy to bother fighting it.

[Anonymous]

I agree that it feels like a waste of time fighting this, as APS clearly has their minds made up. However, I did email engage a few days ago so am one of the 30 that wrote in (per someone's question if anyone here wrote in or not).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree that it feels like a waste of time fighting this, as APS clearly has their minds made up. However, I did email engage a few days ago so am one of the 30 that wrote in (per someone's question if anyone here wrote in or not).

I think I am going to write in, but it’s annoying that I should have to. This should never have gotten to this point. F’ing ridiculous to rewrite the entire plan to appease a very small group of Montessori parents at the expense of the entire system. It’s a terrible plan, and not only won’t it help, it will harm other schools by not addressing crowding and by using up the limited debt capacity to do it. If the Montessori pedagogy is so great and compelling, why do those families care so much about having nicer facilities?