Do we stay in DC or move to Baltimore?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If my husband would do it, I would move to Roland Park in a hot second. We have three kids and I am over the constant competitiveness/rat race in the DC area and the transient people. Places like Baltimore are more affordable and people have a real sense of place. I'd like to raise my kids somewhere where their friends don't move every three years and where people are more down to earth.

Don't get stuck on the lack of home appreciation. It's part of the package--that's why it is affordable to live there. Make investments in something other than your home. Also, real cities have crime. Just be aware of it and no where not to go. No one here in DC is driving around the bad parts of NE or SE for fun...you wouldn't do that in Baltimore, Cleveland or Detroit either.

Good luck to you.

I know someone who lives in Roland Park and you are way off in your assessment of it being low key. A lot of very wealthy people live there, and just like wealthy people everywhere, they are committed to keeping their money and influence. It's not a particularly diverse neighborhood.

In my personal experience, the relevant of which is basically the fact I went to one of the big Baltimore prep schools and knew a ton of families from Roland Park and now have friends that own there as well as the fact that I live in DC and have a very stereotypical DC career...the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know. There are definitely obnoxious folks in Baltimore—but just totally different levels. I think it has to do with the difference in the industries within the two cities.

I grew up close by and know many people who went to Baltimore prep schools and disagree with this. But we live in Springfield where it’s very low key. Baltimore preps compared to my public education Anne arundel county educations were not as strong. Many kids switched back to out middling high school from the preps because of this. Also the preps made kids grow up fast and insecure in my experience. I absolutely love Baltimore but don’t want my kids in prep. I would love to move to the area one day after the kids are schooled.

Sorry about typos clearly my “educations” was awesome

No worries about typos, but what exactly in my post were you disagreeing with? I wasn't making any reference to quality of education, etc.

I was disagreeing with "the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know.". Baltimore has its more than fair share of driven people and those who want the country club/ ivy striving aspect of Baltimore. I am tired of the 3 year military vibe here tho and miss home, but as far as striving there is an "Upper class' Baltimore prep thing that happens that is more old money than the rat race of DC. I moved here when I got married and enjoy aspects of it, but am not thrilled with the transient population. That said, I live in the woods with a creek in my yard in a diverse neighborhood and can get anything I need within a 5 minute drive so I can't complain really. I'm not sure I would trade this for the upper/middle class Baltimore vibe. I like the funky, kinda of arty/down home aspect of Baltimore. Putting kids in a private school would not enhance that experience and it spills out into Baltimore County. Many people who attended privates definitely had a better than you attitude that didn't impress me. It may not be striving but it is still reinforcing of existing stereotypes and class lines in a way I don't want to pass on to my kids. They go to a very diverse, strong public now and that is what I am not willing to trade at the moment. It is about my kid's schooling and their developing a more egalitarian view of the world than Baltimore can offer either private or public. The striving happens in both places, it is just more baked into the culture in Baltimore. Again I'm not in DC proper, but in Springfield so things are fairly laid back here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my husband would do it, I would move to Roland Park in a hot second. We have three kids and I am over the constant competitiveness/rat race in the DC area and the transient people. Places like Baltimore are more affordable and people have a real sense of place. I'd like to raise my kids somewhere where their friends don't move every three years and where people are more down to earth.

Don't get stuck on the lack of home appreciation. It's part of the package--that's why it is affordable to live there. Make investments in something other than your home. Also, real cities have crime. Just be aware of it and no where not to go. No one here in DC is driving around the bad parts of NE or SE for fun...you wouldn't do that in Baltimore, Cleveland or Detroit either.

Good luck to you.

I know someone who lives in Roland Park and you are way off in your assessment of it being low key. A lot of very wealthy people live there, and just like wealthy people everywhere, they are committed to keeping their money and influence. It's not a particularly diverse neighborhood.

In my personal experience, the relevant of which is basically the fact I went to one of the big Baltimore prep schools and knew a ton of families from Roland Park and now have friends that own there as well as the fact that I live in DC and have a very stereotypical DC career...the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know. There are definitely obnoxious folks in Baltimore—but just totally different levels. I think it has to do with the difference in the industries within the two cities.

I grew up close by and know many people who went to Baltimore prep schools and disagree with this. But we live in Springfield where it’s very low key. Baltimore preps compared to my public education Anne arundel county educations were not as strong. Many kids switched back to out middling high school from the preps because of this. Also the preps made kids grow up fast and insecure in my experience. I absolutely love Baltimore but don’t want my kids in prep. I would love to move to the area one day after the kids are schooled.

Sorry about typos clearly my “educations” was awesome

No worries about typos, but what exactly in my post were you disagreeing with? I wasn't making any reference to quality of education, etc.

I was disagreeing with "the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know.". Baltimore has its more than fair share of driven people and those who want the country club/ ivy striving aspect of Baltimore. I am tired of the 3 year military vibe here tho and miss home, but as far as striving there is an "Upper class' Baltimore prep thing that happens that is more old money than the rat race of DC. I moved here when I got married and enjoy aspects of it, but am not thrilled with the transient population. That said, I live in the woods with a creek in my yard in a diverse neighborhood and can get anything I need within a 5 minute drive so I can't complain really. I'm not sure I would trade this for the upper/middle class Baltimore vibe. I like the funky, kinda of arty/down home aspect of Baltimore. Putting kids in a private school would not enhance that experience and it spills out into Baltimore County. Many people who attended privates definitely had a better than you attitude that didn't impress me. It may not be striving but it is still reinforcing of existing stereotypes and class lines in a way I don't want to pass on to my kids. They go to a very diverse, strong public now and that is what I am not willing to trade at the moment. It is about my kid's schooling and their developing a more egalitarian view of the world than Baltimore can offer either private or public. The striving happens in both places, it is just more baked into the culture in Baltimore. Again I'm not in DC proper, but in Springfield so things are fairly laid back here.

Ok. I’m still just not sure, from the above, what you’re disagreeing with. I was just contrasting the levels of uprightness in Baltimore vs. DC, not saying there aren’t snobs in Baltimore. I am surprised to hear someone say AA schools provide a superior education to the good Baltimore prep schools, but that’s neither here nor there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my husband would do it, I would move to Roland Park in a hot second. We have three kids and I am over the constant competitiveness/rat race in the DC area and the transient people. Places like Baltimore are more affordable and people have a real sense of place. I'd like to raise my kids somewhere where their friends don't move every three years and where people are more down to earth.

Don't get stuck on the lack of home appreciation. It's part of the package--that's why it is affordable to live there. Make investments in something other than your home. Also, real cities have crime. Just be aware of it and no where not to go. No one here in DC is driving around the bad parts of NE or SE for fun...you wouldn't do that in Baltimore, Cleveland or Detroit either.

Good luck to you.

I know someone who lives in Roland Park and you are way off in your assessment of it being low key. A lot of very wealthy people live there, and just like wealthy people everywhere, they are committed to keeping their money and influence. It's not a particularly diverse neighborhood.

In my personal experience, the relevant of which is basically the fact I went to one of the big Baltimore prep schools and knew a ton of families from Roland Park and now have friends that own there as well as the fact that I live in DC and have a very stereotypical DC career...the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know. There are definitely obnoxious folks in Baltimore—but just totally different levels. I think it has to do with the difference in the industries within the two cities.

This. No matter how well educated you are or how high powered your job (and yes, they exist here), it’s just not cool to be a striver. The ceo of my husband’s company is super low key in person, doesn’t even live in a “super fancy” house and makes 8 figures. We have multiple Nobel prize winners in our neighborhood and they are 100% normal people. It took me about a year to get used to it when we moved from DC. PEople are humble, polite, and not overly showy about status, skills, or money. People don’t brag, it’s a huge social no no.

I’ve has the same experience. The whole hyper competitive parenting culture which is way too prevalent in DC is extremely frowned upon in Baltimore as well. People are very humble and laid back, even if their kids are all stars. Totally different culture up there among middle class and UMC people.

I'd wonder how both PPs respond to the charge that Baltimore is 'laid back' essentially because it's stuck. A lot of folks I know who come there from other places say this. There's a lot of sorting people out by which schools you attended and your country club memberships. I get that DC striver culture can be insufferable, but it's also a powerful black hole that draws people into from all over galaxy (slight exaggeration) and makes them part of the whole, often by incorporating what uniqueness they bring. Baltimore, by contrast, is a place that whimpers along on the reputation of being one of antebellum America's top cities and fairly major port/manufacturing town until roughly 50 years ago, and has since become something of a museum for those ages.

I’m one of the PPs. I think you may have written this (based on your use of the word whimpers) in a way designed to get a rise out of me, but none of this really resonated to me. I consider a lot of towns a lot more laid back than DC, Baltimore one of them—and the one being discussed here.

In regard to the whole “antebellum” thing, it may help you to know neither I (or anyone I know from the city) is really fixated on the pre-Civil War history of the city. If we’re hanging onto anything, it’s mostly the culture represented in the musical Hairspray.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my husband would do it, I would move to Roland Park in a hot second. We have three kids and I am over the constant competitiveness/rat race in the DC area and the transient people. Places like Baltimore are more affordable and people have a real sense of place. I'd like to raise my kids somewhere where their friends don't move every three years and where people are more down to earth.

Don't get stuck on the lack of home appreciation. It's part of the package--that's why it is affordable to live there. Make investments in something other than your home. Also, real cities have crime. Just be aware of it and no where not to go. No one here in DC is driving around the bad parts of NE or SE for fun...you wouldn't do that in Baltimore, Cleveland or Detroit either.

Good luck to you.

I know someone who lives in Roland Park and you are way off in your assessment of it being low key. A lot of very wealthy people live there, and just like wealthy people everywhere, they are committed to keeping their money and influence. It's not a particularly diverse neighborhood.

In my personal experience, the relevant of which is basically the fact I went to one of the big Baltimore prep schools and knew a ton of families from Roland Park and now have friends that own there as well as the fact that I live in DC and have a very stereotypical DC career...the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know. There are definitely obnoxious folks in Baltimore—but just totally different levels. I think it has to do with the difference in the industries within the two cities.

I grew up close by and know many people who went to Baltimore prep schools and disagree with this. But we live in Springfield where it’s very low key. Baltimore preps compared to my public education Anne arundel county educations were not as strong. Many kids switched back to out middling high school from the preps because of this. Also the preps made kids grow up fast and insecure in my experience. I absolutely love Baltimore but don’t want my kids in prep. I would love to move to the area one day after the kids are schooled.

Sorry about typos clearly my “educations” was awesome

No worries about typos, but what exactly in my post were you disagreeing with? I wasn't making any reference to quality of education, etc.

I was disagreeing with "the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know.". Baltimore has its more than fair share of driven people and those who want the country club/ ivy striving aspect of Baltimore. I am tired of the 3 year military vibe here tho and miss home, but as far as striving there is an "Upper class' Baltimore prep thing that happens that is more old money than the rat race of DC. I moved here when I got married and enjoy aspects of it, but am not thrilled with the transient population. That said, I live in the woods with a creek in my yard in a diverse neighborhood and can get anything I need within a 5 minute drive so I can't complain really. I'm not sure I would trade this for the upper/middle class Baltimore vibe. I like the funky, kinda of arty/down home aspect of Baltimore. Putting kids in a private school would not enhance that experience and it spills out into Baltimore County. Many people who attended privates definitely had a better than you attitude that didn't impress me. It may not be striving but it is still reinforcing of existing stereotypes and class lines in a way I don't want to pass on to my kids. They go to a very diverse, strong public now and that is what I am not willing to trade at the moment. It is about my kid's schooling and their developing a more egalitarian view of the world than Baltimore can offer either private or public. The striving happens in both places, it is just more baked into the culture in Baltimore. Again I'm not in DC proper, but in Springfield so things are fairly laid back here.

The irony here is that the Baltimore private’s are more diverse than any of the surrounding public schools, including AA county. But whatever, if it’s not for you, stay in Springfield or wherever you are. This thread is for people considering living in Baltimore.

[Anonymous]

Another product of the Baltimore prep world here. It's been interesting reading the last few pages. My own experience is only anecdotal, but for what it's worth, the old money old school world with its focus on Gilman and the Cotillion and Green Spring Valley Hunt Club is a lot smaller and far less dominant than it was 25 years ago, and that in turn was smaller than in the 50s-60s. It's almost entirely gone from Roland Park, which is now your professional UMC neighborhood rather than old money. The world is still there but it carries little weight. Many of the kids left Baltimore, along with the pervasive brain drain. Roland Park has more in common with CC DC, populated by academics and doctors and public health officials. Gilman is less old money and more meritocracy. I can't see how there is pressure to keep up with the Jones unless it's self inflicted. It is very easy to live in Baltimore, in Roland Park and have kids at the privates, and not even notice the old money world.

I would argue there's more of a keeping up with the Jones mentality in Anne Arundel than Baltimore. All that waterfront real estate and wealth is much more conspicuous than anything in Baltimore.

Old Baltimore, whether old money or old working class, is pretty much gone and only survives akin to the old immigrant institutions that people turn up to periodically to celebrate their heritage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Notice how many conditionals Baltimore excusers have to add to make Baltimore a livable choice. Baltimore is good IF: you buy in the white L, send your kids to $20/30k per year private schools, etc etc.

Putting aside the rest of your kinda oddly angry post about Baltimore, you do realize this is how many people think of DC and other major cities, yes? Average salaries and corresponding COL may be higher, but people make similar calculuses in every city. Why do you think so many people who can afford it live in the ritzy parts of the NW?

I sure don't disagree these types of choices represent significant issues, but there are a lot of IFs for a lot of people about living in DC as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “Baltimore is a crime ridden hellhole” crowd is annoying. OP wants to live in a city, not a suburb. How many $325,000 3br rowhomes that look like this are in neighborhoods with less crime than Hampden? How are the schools in these DC neighborhoods with these $325,000 rowhomes?

https://www.redfin.com/MD/Baltimore/1318-W-40th-St-21211/home/10874694

Here’s what $350,000 will get you in Locust Point. You can walk a couple blocks to a ferry that takes you to Fells Point and Canton from here. Locust Point is one of the safest neighborhoods in Baltimore.

https://www.redfin.com/MD/Baltimore/1414-Richardson-St-21230/home/11023685

Here’s what $350,000 gets you for a 3br rowhome in DC. Would the Baltimore haters in this thread rather live here than the homes above? What is the crime like in the Washington Highlands neighborhood?

https://www.redfin.com/DC/Washington/717-Atlantic-St-SE-20032/home/10168788

There's a reason they're $325k


Baltimorons think Baltimore is a magical fairytale land of cheap and good RE.

The market speaks for itself. If it were so wonderful then all go these properties would be $600,700k, or even 1M just like they are in DC or Boston. But they're not.

People can type paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs all they want. But when it comes down to it, the invisible hand wins and speaks volumes about the city.

Baltimore isn't desirable. Why? Crime, poverty, terrible govt, terrible infrastructure, and some of the worst schools in the country. How many students in high school were testing 0% proficiency in basic math at one point?

Notice how many conditionals Baltimore excusers have to add to make Baltimore a livable choice. Baltimore is good IF: you buy in the white L, send your kids to $20/30k per year private schools, etc etc.

Basically, the hypocrisy is insane. Baltimore is nice if you live within an extreme segregated bubble from all of the undesirables (racist dog whistle). Everyone is so progressive on DCUM until they actually try to justify living in a city with 300+ murders....all of the sudden no one wants to integrate, proposes to live in wealthy white enclaves with extreme wealth disparity compared to other parts of the city in areas built on redlining, and proposes to send kids to $30k per year schools to keep them away from all the undesirables' kids in schools. It's total hypocrisy.

Oh, find somewhere else to spit your bile. We get it, you hate Baltimore. I can’t imagine what you’re trying to accomplish here. You have a very, very narrow and cramped perspective. And it’s absolutely bizarre to see you try to claim that it’s racist to live in a low-crime area of a majority-minority city, and that therefore nobody should move to that city at all.

Seriously, please go find another hobby.

[Anonymous]

I find it interesting how uber-defensive people are on this thread about Baltimore. Posters bring up legitimate issues with the city, and the “Baltimore Boosters” just tell them to go away or label them as “angry” or a “hater.”

I grew up in Baltimore and wrote an earlier post (for the OP) about why I would never live there again or sink money into real estate within the city limits. This doesn’t mean I’m “angry” or I “hate” my hometown. If anything, I’m sad for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it interesting how uber-defensive people are on this thread about Baltimore. Posters bring up legitimate issues with the city, and the “Baltimore Boosters” just tell them to go away or label them as “angry” or a “hater.”

I grew up in Baltimore and wrote an earlier post (for the OP) about why I would never live there again or sink money into real estate within the city limits. This doesn’t mean I’m “angry” or I “hate” my hometown. If anything, I’m sad for it.

So you felt the need to come back and tell us again? we saw your first post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it interesting how uber-defensive people are on this thread about Baltimore. Posters bring up legitimate issues with the city, and the “Baltimore Boosters” just tell them to go away or label them as “angry” or a “hater.”

I grew up in Baltimore and wrote an earlier post (for the OP) about why I would never live there again or sink money into real estate within the city limits. This doesn’t mean I’m “angry” or I “hate” my hometown. If anything, I’m sad for it.

Well, I think its a bit odd to call people uber-defensive when those slamming the city are using stupid terms like Baltimoron. Those are the posts that I think people clapped back over with any heat. The rest that I've seen have just been standard arguments about how to think about each city's real estate market.

And I am one of the DC posters.

[Anonymous]

It’s interesting because many many Baltimoreans return here with a spouse from elsewhere. We sold our home in the county to a couple returning from ny (wife from Baltimore) earlier this year, and the house next to our new place in city was just purchased from another couple returning from nyc (wife fromBaltimore). Sold house before that to couple returning to Baltimore to dc. My own spouse grew up here, attended the same school as one for our kids, but I am not from Baltimore.

So, on one hand, Baltimore does have more natives than other cities I’ve lived in (and I’ve lived in many, including dc) who return here to raise their own families. On the other hand, many are bringing with them spouses who are from elsewhere, so I would agree old Baltimore is much smaller segment than it was 20 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Hey folks, OP here. I get people are opinionated, but I was really enjoying the honesty and good will in this thread. As I'm sure you can gather from my posts in here, we recognize there are pluses and minuses to living anywhere, and of course we are aware of the downsides of Baltimore -- otherwise we'd already live there and I would never have posted here.

But let's tone down the vitriol. People feel passionately about their hometowns, and they are going to tout their best qualities. That doesn't make them a "booster" -- it means they like where they live, and shouldn't we all? I've lived in DC for a long time and defended it a million times, to friends from NYC who think it's too small and nerdy, to friends from abroad who think it lacks style, to family back home who think it's too dangerous. I'm always going to defend DC, even if/when I don't live here anymore, because it's my home and I love it.

So let's respect other people's willingness to to do the same for Baltimore. And FWIW, knowing that residents will go to bat for their city makes it more attractive to me as a prospective transplant. Who wouldn't want to live in a city beloved by the people who know it best?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another product of the Baltimore prep world here. It's been interesting reading the last few pages. My own experience is only anecdotal, but for what it's worth, the old money old school world with its focus on Gilman and the Cotillion and Green Spring Valley Hunt Club is a lot smaller and far less dominant than it was 25 years ago, and that in turn was smaller than in the 50s-60s. It's almost entirely gone from Roland Park, which is now your professional UMC neighborhood rather than old money. The world is still there but it carries little weight. Many of the kids left Baltimore, along with the pervasive brain drain. Roland Park has more in common with CC DC, populated by academics and doctors and public health officials. Gilman is less old money and more meritocracy. I can't see how there is pressure to keep up with the Jones unless it's self inflicted. It is very easy to live in Baltimore, in Roland Park and have kids at the privates, and not even notice the old money world.

I would argue there's more of a keeping up with the Jones mentality in Anne Arundel than Baltimore. All that waterfront real estate and wealth is much more conspicuous than anything in Baltimore.

Old Baltimore, whether old money or old working class, is pretty much gone and only survives akin to the old immigrant institutions that people turn up to periodically to celebrate their heritage.

I have kids at Gilman and honestly, the country club crowd is maybe 30 or 40% tops. The rest of us are just working professionals, many of whom are Hopkins connected in some way. I suspect that 20 years ago that percentage may have been larger. And I have to say, the country club crowd is different from the rest of us, but they’re not unkind! Just… different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey folks, OP here. I get people are opinionated, but I was really enjoying the honesty and good will in this thread. As I'm sure you can gather from my posts in here, we recognize there are pluses and minuses to living anywhere, and of course we are aware of the downsides of Baltimore -- otherwise we'd already live there and I would never have posted here.

But let's tone down the vitriol. People feel passionately about their hometowns, and they are going to tout their best qualities. That doesn't make them a "booster" -- it means they like where they live, and shouldn't we all? I've lived in DC for a long time and defended it a million times, to friends from NYC who think it's too small and nerdy, to friends from abroad who think it lacks style, to family back home who think it's too dangerous. I'm always going to defend DC, even if/when I don't live here anymore, because it's my home and I love it.

So let's respect other people's willingness to to do the same for Baltimore. And FWIW, knowing that residents will go to bat for their city makes it more attractive to me as a prospective transplant. Who wouldn't want to live in a city beloved by the people who know it best?

Amen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my husband would do it, I would move to Roland Park in a hot second. We have three kids and I am over the constant competitiveness/rat race in the DC area and the transient people. Places like Baltimore are more affordable and people have a real sense of place. I'd like to raise my kids somewhere where their friends don't move every three years and where people are more down to earth.

Don't get stuck on the lack of home appreciation. It's part of the package--that's why it is affordable to live there. Make investments in something other than your home. Also, real cities have crime. Just be aware of it and no where not to go. No one here in DC is driving around the bad parts of NE or SE for fun...you wouldn't do that in Baltimore, Cleveland or Detroit either.

Good luck to you.

I know someone who lives in Roland Park and you are way off in your assessment of it being low key. A lot of very wealthy people live there, and just like wealthy people everywhere, they are committed to keeping their money and influence. It's not a particularly diverse neighborhood.

In my personal experience, the relevant of which is basically the fact I went to one of the big Baltimore prep schools and knew a ton of families from Roland Park and now have friends that own there as well as the fact that I live in DC and have a very stereotypical DC career...the stress levels and competitiveness of even the most “driven” Baltimore person (for lack of a better word) still pales in comparison to those of most DC people I know. There are definitely obnoxious folks in Baltimore—but just totally different levels. I think it has to do with the difference in the industries within the two cities.

This. No matter how well educated you are or how high powered your job (and yes, they exist here), it’s just not cool to be a striver. The ceo of my husband’s company is super low key in person, doesn’t even live in a “super fancy” house and makes 8 figures. We have multiple Nobel prize winners in our neighborhood and they are 100% normal people. It took me about a year to get used to it when we moved from DC. PEople are humble, polite, and not overly showy about status, skills, or money. People don’t brag, it’s a huge social no no.

I’ve has the same experience. The whole hyper competitive parenting culture which is way too prevalent in DC is extremely frowned upon in Baltimore as well. People are very humble and laid back, even if their kids are all stars. Totally different culture up there among middle class and UMC people.

I'd wonder how both PPs respond to the charge that Baltimore is 'laid back' essentially because it's stuck. A lot of folks I know who come there from other places say this. There's a lot of sorting people out by which schools you attended and your country club memberships. I get that DC striver culture can be insufferable, but it's also a powerful black hole that draws people into from all over galaxy (slight exaggeration) and makes them part of the whole, often by incorporating what uniqueness they bring. Baltimore, by contrast, is a place that whimpers along on the reputation of being one of antebellum America's top cities and fairly major port/manufacturing town until roughly 50 years ago, and has since become something of a museum for those ages.

I’m one of the PPs. I think you may have written this (based on your use of the word whimpers) in a way designed to get a rise out of me, but none of this really resonated to me. I consider a lot of towns a lot more laid back than DC, Baltimore one of them—and the one being discussed here.

In regard to the whole “antebellum” thing, it may help you to know neither I (or anyone I know from the city) is really fixated on the pre-Civil War history of the city. If we’re hanging onto anything, it’s mostly the culture represented in the musical Hairspray.

I'm almost positive any answer could be better here. What you need to do is tell me what the next act is. Laid back to many of us is an obvious cover for resting on its laurels. And don't give me this B.S. about Hairspray. Waters himself said ten years ago he wasn't going to Hunfest since everyone with an actual beehive in Baltimore was now in a nursing home. I imagine most of those folks are in the ground by now.

And it's funny you dismiss the fact that there was a real antebellum glory here and that it, like other successes, cripples the place. Do Faulkner's writings vaporize if they arrive within half-a-mile of Northern Parkway? Past really is present, bub. If you were even a little surprised by the recent public revelations about the city's big Quaker philanthropist being a slaveholder, I'd say you've missed a lot. And perhaps if you really need to sort this out, we can discuss it at The Alex Brown or perhaps Robert E. Lee Park, you know, the recently re-named Lake Roland Park?