White privilege and asian-bashing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, the academic standards in America are so low nowadays, compared even to when I was growing up in the public schools one generation ago.

Thank no child left behind.

You almost have to take it upon yourself as a parent to teach your kids ahead of the current "grade level" curricular standards if you want them to be well prepared to be a global citizen and be able to participate in a meaningful way in the 21st first century economy.

Meh. None of our kids are gonna be able to keep up with AI. They’re screwed no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

+100 My son loves soccer and I'm glad he does it because he enjoys it. I am under NO delusion that his soccer team experience is a life building skill and he should be guaranteed a C-suite job because of this.

The focus on sports is a throw back to the old tradition of the rich white guy that played on the football team, was a football star and then became CEO or senior level of a company. While most of these guys ended up selling mattresses, the stories of the congressmen or CEO's reminiscing about how their football days gave them the leadership skills to succeed created a powerful myth that fools still buy into today.

White parents see sports as a path into popularity and success. It may have been this way in the manufacturing and managerial era but not in the Information Age. Nerds rule now.

Yes! I see this all the time. Most parents have a desire for their child to be part of a group, and sports is the way to do it.

So sports is the only way to do it. Those who have their kids compete on Math Team, Quiz Bowl, Robotics teams don't count and their kids should be encouraged not to excel in their competition of choice because some families feel that their children are disadvantaged by families who choose to tutor their children outside of school.

Right.

I think that families complaining about outside tutoring need to get used to the fact that their bright but lazy students are middle-tracked instead of fast tracked in school. If they want to choose to balance their child's life without any outside academic tutoring, that's fine, but does not guarantee them anything beyond the standard middle track schooling.

NP here. In AAP, I often hear the complaint that heavily tutored kids would not be in AAP, if they were not heavily tutored - so there is some validity in the argument. I don't know whether the heavy tutoring (4-6 times per week, in every subject currently taken by the tutored student) is a cultural thing or not. Honestly, do you think everyone should be in AAP? Doesn't it lose it's effectiveness if more people are in AAP than general education? Maybe the AAP kids who don't need the tutoring should be in their own classes? Maybe all the preparation is not fair to the kids who are naturally bright. I don't have a dog in this fight, as my kids have graduated. But I could see how at some point, AAP will be for everyone. So what is the point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

physical activity is important, but doing an organized physical activity is not

So, a kid who goes to the playground after school for an hour, then goes to a math tutoring program for an hour is not healthy but a kid who goes to 2 hours of football practice after school is healthy. Even if the former kid is considered healthy by their pediatrician, those parents are clearing stunting their child's growth.

After all the recent studies about CTE in football players, you can't seriously say that football is a healthy way to get physical activity.

Who said anything about football? I specifically said athletic activities, and did not say team sports and certainly not football. Hanging out at a playground is fine, and it gets a kid outdoors and away from screens, but it won’t do All that much for physical fitness. Some kids will run or ride a bike on their own but few will stick to it for say, an hour three to five days a week so as to get good cardio training.

A lot of kids need someone to give their fitness activities some structure so they will stick with it. School sports are an inexpensive and convenient way to achieve this, while also learning about winning and losing with grace, but they are certainly not the only way. There are plenty of other possibilities that a parent could pay for, but it truly is helpful to have some kind of organized activity where kids learn how to do an activity and can enjoy it with other kids.

And yes, a kid can be “healthy” without being physically fit. Kids who enter early adulthood without established habits of physical activity will be at a deficit in the long run. My kid at a highly ranked school in a STEM major sees that many other kids in those majors do not work out regularly, even though the school has very nice facilities available that are included with tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

Right, because chosing an academic extracurricular completely precludes fitness. gotcha.

btw, my 2 asian friends in my HS class were totally different. one played high-level tennis and went to stanford and became a doctor. the other was a goth excellent classical piano player who became a kindergarten teacher. enough with stereotypes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

Right, because chosing an academic extracurricular completely precludes fitness. gotcha.

btw, my 2 asian friends in my HS class were totally different. one played high-level tennis and went to stanford and became a doctor. the other was a goth excellent classical piano player who became a kindergarten teacher. enough with stereotypes!

Nowhere in the above posts being replied to was there any mention of race. The pitfalls of doing school every day after school with no other activities thrown in was the subject being discussed. This situation can affect many children when their parents are making decisions for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

Right, because chosing an academic extracurricular completely precludes fitness. gotcha.

btw, my 2 asian friends in my HS class were totally different. one played high-level tennis and went to stanford and became a doctor. the other was a goth excellent classical piano player who became a kindergarten teacher. enough with stereotypes!

Nowhere in the above posts being replied to was there any mention of race. The pitfalls of doing school every day after school with no other activities thrown in was the subject being discussed. This situation can affect many children when their parents are making decisions for them.

Also, no one that is supporting outside tutoring of STEAM subjects suggesting that tutoring be done to the exclusion of other activities. In fact, most of the kids that are tutored also have other activities, often some form of physical activity. There are plenty of such tutored Asian kids that participate in activities such as roller skating, dance classes, tennis classes, swimming, gymnastics, and track. The problem is that due to genetics, Asian kids tend to be smaller and slighter and so are less likely to be in activities like team sports which favor bigger, stronger kids like football, soccer, and basketball. But go ahead and create that straw man of the Asian kids who are tutored exclusively in academics, given no physical outlets and are forced to tutored in math for hours a day. Most of them do a few hours per week and have other activities such as music or non-team sport physical activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is all this pressure you talk of? Many elementary schools have no HW or minimal HW. Schools bend of backward to reduce workload. Effort, not results, is emphasized. Homework is typically not graded for my middle schooler.

It is very different than it was five years ago.

That’s all good. But there are schools in the DMV and beyond where students are learning next year’s math outside of school and then lobbying the administration for a subject acceleration. When more and more kids do this it changes the culture of the school.

There should definitely be no pressure in elementary school. I’m not seeing that when 5 kids in 6th grade are selected to take Algebra I in 6th grade—not because they are brilliant or gifted but because they studied for hundreds of hours outside school and and prepped for tests most parents have no clue exist.
When a school does this it condones the pressure put on these kids outside of school and encourages other families to follow suit. Typically it’s not UMC white families that feel the pressure to “be the best” but rather the less wealthy and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants who feel this anxiety.

On one hand it’s unfair for UMC parents to tsk tsk the practice of hot housing academics on young kids. They have less to worry about as far as maintaining their child’s class status. But in this case they are right. No expert in education thinks pushing down academics is a good thing. The idea that kids should go to 8 hours of school and then do academics afterward isn’t an education ideal. The Asian communities that do this are a disaster and no one would say otherwise.

Oh PUL-eeze! If your kid were put in the top reading group or a math pullout, you'd be gloating about how they are "naturally advanced." You resent the kids taking algebra in 6th grade because it makes your own kid look behind or (gasp) average. This is 100% about your insecurity.

It’s interesting how you project your insecurities onto me.

Again, I don’t care how you parent your child, but I do believe that **your insecurities** should not affect school policy. It should not be a common occurrence that a child is placed in a math class that 3 years ahead of his grade. It just isn’t necessary. Just like it wasn’t necessary to put that child in hours of after school tutoring to begin with but whatever.

You cannot seem to wrap your head around how this affects the school culture but others get it, and maybe they have more patience than I. But it boils down to a constant need to move the goal posts. First it’s Algebra in 7th. Then 6th. Then 5th. It will not stop. And your competitiveness does indeed trickle down. And I believe instruction for all suffers. For your kid and mine. Schools understand this. Which is why they drag their feet but they have to balance what they know is right with keeping parents happy.

Stop with the “my kid could actually be gifted” if he is you aren’t the problem.

Stop with the comparing math tutoring to soccer. It does not compare.

Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Stop with the “we are a math phobic country”. There is a huge difference between encouraging math via middle school competitions and making a first grader go to kumon.

Stop with comparing reading with your kid to math tutor with an entirely separate math curriculum.

It’s absolutely a race to stressed out kids in high school. This is all this is.

You can tutor your child, and she can still look way ahead of mine in the normal advanced or gifted math class. This is not about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

We seem to be perfectly fine with this in athletics. No one complains when the star athlete practices two hours every day. In fact, we idolize him and shower him with praise for talent and hard work.

The point is that athletics is different from school work. A child or teen spends all day in school, and then they go out on to the athletic field and do something different from what they’ve been doing all day. A child who spends all day in school and then sends the after school hours in outside academic classes or tutoring is simply doing more of the same, not expanding knowledge into a completely different area than academics.

The children who excel in school and in a more physical activity are developing lives with many different facets. They have a foundation to build an adult life as a strong and healthy person who can win and lose as part of a team and be just as successful academically. Kids who can excel in school while spending their after school hours in non academic pursuits are sought after by colleges who want students who can be successful and contribute in a number of different areas.

That's fine for you, and your family. The equivalent would be me complaining that PE classes need to be dumbed down more for my kid because yours is so athletic.

That actually would not be the equivalent since PE classes are not particularly challenging or difficult for most kids. The point is that it is better for the development of most kids to be exposed to a variety of activities. Kids do better overall when their after school time is spent on non academic activities (unless they’re having trouble keeping up in school, of course). Spending all day in school and then doing more school after school does not lead to growth in a variety of areas for a child.

I have a kid at a HYPSM school in a STEM major, and many of the kids are lacking in physical fitness. These are incredibly smart kids, but they need to learn to take care of the health of their bodies while engaged in academics.

Kids need to learn from an early age to do both. Spending after school time doing athletic activities helps them to learn to balance academics with developing strength and physical fitness. A bonus is that physical fitness helps with better mental health, too.

Right, because chosing an academic extracurricular completely precludes fitness. gotcha.

btw, my 2 asian friends in my HS class were totally different. one played high-level tennis and went to stanford and became a doctor. the other was a goth excellent classical piano player who became a kindergarten teacher. enough with stereotypes!

Nowhere in the above posts being replied to was there any mention of race. The pitfalls of doing school every day after school with no other activities thrown in was the subject being discussed. This situation can affect many children when their parents are making decisions for them.

Also, no one that is supporting outside tutoring of STEAM subjects suggesting that tutoring be done to the exclusion of other activities. In fact, most of the kids that are tutored also have other activities, often some form of physical activity. There are plenty of such tutored Asian kids that participate in activities such as roller skating, dance classes, tennis classes, swimming, gymnastics, and track. The problem is that due to genetics, Asian kids tend to be smaller and slighter and so are less likely to be in activities like team sports which favor bigger, stronger kids like football, soccer, and basketball. But go ahead and create that straw man of the Asian kids who are tutored exclusively in academics, given no physical outlets and are forced to tutored in math for hours a day. Most of them do a few hours per week and have other activities such as music or non-team sport physical activities.

Again, we’re talking about kids who don’t get physical activity each day, not kids who do. It doesn’t matter what country their ancestors originally came from, it is unhealthy for most kids to go right from school to enrichment classes and tutoring. I’ve known a number of kids in this situation over the years, so it is something that does happen. My STEM-oriented kids were many times the only ones in their groups who actually participated in athletic activities five days a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is all this pressure you talk of? Many elementary schools have no HW or minimal HW. Schools bend of backward to reduce workload. Effort, not results, is emphasized. Homework is typically not graded for my middle schooler.

It is very different than it was five years ago.

That’s all good. But there are schools in the DMV and beyond where students are learning next year’s math outside of school and then lobbying the administration for a subject acceleration. When more and more kids do this it changes the culture of the school.

There should definitely be no pressure in elementary school. I’m not seeing that when 5 kids in 6th grade are selected to take Algebra I in 6th grade—not because they are brilliant or gifted but because they studied for hundreds of hours outside school and and prepped for tests most parents have no clue exist.
When a school does this it condones the pressure put on these kids outside of school and encourages other families to follow suit. Typically it’s not UMC white families that feel the pressure to “be the best” but rather the less wealthy and 1st or 2nd generation immigrants who feel this anxiety.

On one hand it’s unfair for UMC parents to tsk tsk the practice of hot housing academics on young kids. They have less to worry about as far as maintaining their child’s class status. But in this case they are right. No expert in education thinks pushing down academics is a good thing. The idea that kids should go to 8 hours of school and then do academics afterward isn’t an education ideal. The Asian communities that do this are a disaster and no one would say otherwise.

Oh PUL-eeze! If your kid were put in the top reading group or a math pullout, you'd be gloating about how they are "naturally advanced." You resent the kids taking algebra in 6th grade because it makes your own kid look behind or (gasp) average. This is 100% about your insecurity.

It’s interesting how you project your insecurities onto me.

Again, I don’t care how you parent your child, but I do believe that **your insecurities** should not affect school policy. It should not be a common occurrence that a child is placed in a math class that 3 years ahead of his grade. It just isn’t necessary. Just like it wasn’t necessary to put that child in hours of after school tutoring to begin with but whatever.

You cannot seem to wrap your head around how this affects the school culture but others get it, and maybe they have more patience than I. But it boils down to a constant need to move the goal posts. First it’s Algebra in 7th. Then 6th. Then 5th. It will not stop. And your competitiveness does indeed trickle down. And I believe instruction for all suffers. For your kid and mine. Schools understand this. Which is why they drag their feet but they have to balance what they know is right with keeping parents happy.

Stop with the “my kid could actually be gifted” if he is you aren’t the problem.

Stop with the comparing math tutoring to soccer. It does not compare.

Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Stop with the “we are a math phobic country”. There is a huge difference between encouraging math via middle school competitions and making a first grader go to kumon.

Stop with comparing reading with your kid to math tutor with an entirely separate math curriculum.

It’s absolutely a race to stressed out kids in high school. This is all this is.

You can tutor your child, and she can still look way ahead of mine in the normal advanced or gifted math class. This is not about that.

Lol. For your information, my child has special needs so we're truly running our own race. in some ways it's a gift, because I truly don't gaf about what other kids are doing. you on the other hand are apparently incapable of just parenting how you want.

[Anonymous]

^np- maybe you are special needs too? You clearly didn’t understand the above post...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^np- maybe you are special needs too? You clearly didn’t understand the above post...

Oh I understood it all right. PP is massively insecure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Where are these groups kids who are doing hours of tutoring every night to the point that entire school cultures are changed? My kids attend a somewhat competitive AAP center with a decently high percentage of Asians in the middle of the county. I don't think there's a single kid there who is doing cram school. None of the kids who are taking Algebra in 6th or who are winning the math contests are doing more than taking a 2 hour/week class at RSM or AoPS. Do you actually know that a bunch of kids at your school are doing cram school and asking for special privileges, or are you assuming that any Asian kid who is decently above grade level must be a prep robot?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Where are these groups kids who are doing hours of tutoring every night to the point that entire school cultures are changed? My kids attend a somewhat competitive AAP center with a decently high percentage of Asians in the middle of the county. I don't think there's a single kid there who is doing cram school. None of the kids who are taking Algebra in 6th or who are winning the math contests are doing more than taking a 2 hour/week class at RSM or AoPS. Do you actually know that a bunch of kids at your school are doing cram school and asking for special privileges, or are you assuming that any Asian kid who is decently above grade level must be a prep robot?

In the imagination of people in denial about their child being merely average in this region ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Where are these groups kids who are doing hours of tutoring every night to the point that entire school cultures are changed? My kids attend a somewhat competitive AAP center with a decently high percentage of Asians in the middle of the county. I don't think there's a single kid there who is doing cram school. None of the kids who are taking Algebra in 6th or who are winning the math contests are doing more than taking a 2 hour/week class at RSM or AoPS. Do you actually know that a bunch of kids at your school are doing cram school and asking for special privileges, or are you assuming that any Asian kid who is decently above grade level must be a prep robot?

In the imagination of people in denial about their child being merely average in this region ...

In a STEM magnet across the river, the magnet asian kids are on many sports team in school. Many of the best players are the magnet Asian kids. Accusing academically prepared Asian kids for being robots or damaging school culture is nonsense. If you want your DC to spend 20 hours on sports or travel team but ignore academic performance, it is the route you and your DC take . Don't blame others run too fast if you don't want or cannot keep up the speed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Stop with the “it’s only an hour a week”. If it is you aren't the problem.

Where are these groups kids who are doing hours of tutoring every night to the point that entire school cultures are changed? My kids attend a somewhat competitive AAP center with a decently high percentage of Asians in the middle of the county. I don't think there's a single kid there who is doing cram school. None of the kids who are taking Algebra in 6th or who are winning the math contests are doing more than taking a 2 hour/week class at RSM or AoPS. Do you actually know that a bunch of kids at your school are doing cram school and asking for special privileges, or are you assuming that any Asian kid who is decently above grade level must be a prep robot?

In the imagination of people in denial about their child being merely average in this region ...

In a STEM magnet across the river, the magnet asian kids are on many sports team in school. Many of the best players are the magnet Asian kids. Accusing academically prepared Asian kids for being robots or damaging school culture is nonsense. If you want your DC to spend 20 hours on sports or travel team but ignore academic performance, it is the route you and your DC take . Don't blame others run too fast if you don't want or cannot keep up the speed.

Exactly. White people are lazy. They aren’t even great at sports. They have to cheat to get anywhere in life.