This American Life about desegregation in schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Candoleeza Rice had a family that supported her education and this is why she was so successful. Rice began to learn French, music, figure skating and ballet at the age of three.

She went to a private Catholic school, St. Mary's Academy (Cherry Hills Village), when she was 13 and that she graduated.

That's where the counselor told her she was not college material? It was not even a public school. Her parents chose to pay for her to go there. Why didn't they put her in a black failing school?

Condi was not raised POOR, she was raised in a insular black middle class neighborhood. Just like Julian Bond and other blacks at that time.

[Anonymous]

Is there data to show how well AA students do in white schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster here

Here is the elephant in the room

Why do many Asian and African immigrants generally break the poverty cycle in one generation while other populations don't

It's not SES because most immigrants arrive at the bottom of the SES stack so they have to attend a "crappy" school with parents working crappy long jobs but somehow the students make it

In all honesty, I hear this question over and over again. I know many Africans from different countries. I was an active member of African Society Union in college. I have never met one African immigrant who was impoverished. They may not have come to this country rich, but they were not impoverished in their home countries. The Africans who make it to the U.S. and Canada are not the poor Africans you think you know. They are not the Africans you see when you go outside your gated resort and walk and drive around the countryside.

Now I will readily admit that I don't know very many Asians, but surely the Asians who are paying thousands of dollars to get here to send their kids to TJ while another parent stays in the home country to work cannot be considered a poor immigrant. Where are these poor immigrants, outside of the Central Americans, that you speak?

NP here. When I read PP's comment I automatically thought of the Vietnamese boat people, who came to the U.S. in the hundreds of thousands as refugees at the end of the Vietnam War. Many of them were not the highly educated, highly motivated immigrants you mention, many were working-class or poor in Vietnam (and after years of war and months as refugees before arriving, some were malnourished, sick, and had PTSD). They as a group have done pretty well despite losing everything and arriving in this country only a generation ago, many without speaking any English. If they could make it without becoming criminals and drop-outs, I think AAs can, too.

And now someone will bring up the diaphanous specter of "institutionalized racism" that somehow doesn't affect refugee or other minorities, and only affects AAs.

Do you have any statistics? Growing up in a refugee resettlement area it was always my impression that Hmoung struggled quite a bit.

Hmong and Vietnamese aren't the same culture.

So what you're saying is that it must be partially culturally driven, i.e., cultures and subcultures with strong academic and work focus do well as immigrants/citizens and those that don't have that same focus, don't do as well? Because that's an argument that seems to hold water.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's bewildering that insist that you want to be viewed as hard working and education oriented while you fail school after school, when all failing schools are yours.

My grandma used to teach me that first you work for your reputation, then the reputation works for you.

"You" fail? Who is "you"? What do you mean by "yours"? Schools are public. They're everyone's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Hmong and Vietnamese aren't the same culture.

So what you're saying is that it must be partially culturally driven, i.e., cultures and subcultures with strong academic and work focus do well as immigrants/citizens and those that don't have that same focus, don't do as well? Because that's an argument that seems to hold water.

And what stops AA community from developing such culture? If an Indian uneducated farmer can do it so can they.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Hmong and Vietnamese aren't the same culture.

So what you're saying is that it must be partially culturally driven, i.e., cultures and subcultures with strong academic and work focus do well as immigrants/citizens and those that don't have that same focus, don't do as well? Because that's an argument that seems to hold water.

And what stops AA community from developing such culture? If an Indian uneducated farmer can do it so can they.

What makes you think some aren't? Are you looking for 100% before you stop stereotyping? I can easily think of several acquaintances that fit your bill.

Do you think that 100% of uneducated farmers are able to make the leap?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So intersting new twist here

Does racial diversity matter more or socioeconomic

The good thing is racially 100 years from now all the trends point to more and more mixed people and more diversity

at the other extreme socioeconomically things are getting worse

any thoughts.....

I think ot is about money and status and connections. But in the US, those things are very much linked to race for historical reasons. In 100 years we will all be more 'mixed' but there will always be one group or other down in the grip of poverty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Hmong and Vietnamese aren't the same culture.

So what you're saying is that it must be partially culturally driven, i.e., cultures and subcultures with strong academic and work focus do well as immigrants/citizens and those that don't have that same focus, don't do as well? Because that's an argument that seems to hold water.

And what stops AA community from developing such culture? If an Indian uneducated farmer can do it so can they.

Good lord. Do you know any Black people? It's like you think "the AA community" is all one thing, where no one cares about education and everyone just wants a hand out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Hmong and Vietnamese aren't the same culture.

So what you're saying is that it must be partially culturally driven, i.e., cultures and subcultures with strong academic and work focus do well as immigrants/citizens and those that don't have that same focus, don't do as well? Because that's an argument that seems to hold water.

And what stops AA community from developing such culture? If an Indian uneducated farmer can do it so can they.

This question and your repeated reference to "you" (why not just go ahead and make it "you people") is a big part of the problem. You see every black American as poor, uneducated and unmotivated while it's unlikely that anyone posting here falls under that description.

The irony is that, for all this talk about the parental role in creating successful students, you would be no more willing to send your kids to a failing school than a parent who's stuck with one.

[Anonymous]

If we ar eto wait for individual responsibility, than actual poor black kids with indivdiual responsibility in poor black neighborhoods are screwed. They can go to school and get staight As and graduate completely unprepared for college and with terrible scores on national tests (remember the kid they followed in teh NPR story had teacher actually teach him something on the day they follwoed him). So they get a job at Mcdondalds and work their way up to manager woking 50 demanading, demeaning hours a week for 30,000 a year (unelss Obama's new overtime rules go into effect). They burn out soon enough - imagine a life of managing fast food resturants ahead of you. So they give education another shot. Working 50 hour weeks of an unpredictablle schedule means they can't attend a traditional college (and rememeber they are academically underprepared anyway), so they get suckered into a degree in m,edical records at phoonix online. Now they owe 20,000 (if they didn't finsih) and 50,000 (if they did), and that gets them an 8.00 an hour job working in a medical office. The good news is they can eventually make 11 dollars an hour (25,000 a year) and the work isn't physically taxing. The bad news is they owe 50,000 and getting laid off or fired puts them in an difficult position because supervisors, who are mostly white, just tend to relate more and thus hire white employees. Maybe when they see you a balck applicant they think of the black DMV woman who gave them bad customer service. Not consciously but unconciosuly. Of coruse, the crappy white dmv worker doesn't taint their vision of prosective white employees the same way. So you better be exceptionally good and presentable.


Black kids know this. They see it play out with their older realtives and kids in teh neighborhood. It kills any drive. Lack of oportunity is real.

Now, I will say that the story above about a black person but about a distent white relative I know who grew up in a rural, oppressed area where the guidence counselor sent all the best graduates to the military (there was no college counseling and no expectation of college). She doesn't deal with racism as in the example above. But, really, this is what a poor failing school gets you. She doesn't have kids (she is in her 30s now) and likely won't ever have kids or own a house becasue she can't affird them. So personal responsibility without oportunities gets you a 25,000 a year job and no family. Her young neices saw this. They didn't follow her path. They followe dteh path you would expect - geds, young pregnancy, retail jobs, precarious though joyful existance full of love and drama and bad choices.

[Anonymous]

I think AA community here means the poor AA community, not Condi Rice or similar. As many on both sides of the debate have said, those lucky AA are the exceptions, those who did not grow up poor and with crappy schools are not the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If we ar eto wait for individual responsibility, than actual poor black kids with indivdiual responsibility in poor black neighborhoods are screwed. They can go to school and get staight As and graduate completely unprepared for college and with terrible scores on national tests (remember the kid they followed in teh NPR story had teacher actually teach him something on the day they follwoed him). So they get a job at Mcdondalds and work their way up to manager woking 50 demanading, demeaning hours a week for 30,000 a year (unelss Obama's new overtime rules go into effect). They burn out soon enough - imagine a life of managing fast food resturants ahead of you. So they give education another shot. Working 50 hour weeks of an unpredictablle schedule means they can't attend a traditional college (and rememeber they are academically underprepared anyway), so they get suckered into a degree in m,edical records at phoonix online. Now they owe 20,000 (if they didn't finsih) and 50,000 (if they did), and that gets them an 8.00 an hour job working in a medical office. The good news is they can eventually make 11 dollars an hour (25,000 a year) and the work isn't physically taxing. The bad news is they owe 50,000 and getting laid off or fired puts them in an difficult position because supervisors, who are mostly white, just tend to relate more and thus hire white employees. Maybe when they see you a balck applicant they think of the black DMV woman who gave them bad customer service. Not consciously but unconciosuly. Of coruse, the crappy white dmv worker doesn't taint their vision of prosective white employees the same way. So you better be exceptionally good and presentable.


Black kids know this. They see it play out with their older realtives and kids in teh neighborhood. It kills any drive. Lack of oportunity is real.

Now, I will say that the story above about a black person but about a distent white relative I know who grew up in a rural, oppressed area where the guidence counselor sent all the best graduates to the military (there was no college counseling and no expectation of college). She doesn't deal with racism as in the example above. But, really, this is what a poor failing school gets you. She doesn't have kids (she is in her 30s now) and likely won't ever have kids or own a house becasue she can't affird them. So personal responsibility without oportunities gets you a 25,000 a year job and no family. Her young neices saw this. They didn't follow her path. They followe dteh path you would expect - geds, young pregnancy, retail jobs, precarious though joyful existance full of love and drama and bad choices.

Add to that they can see the drug lord pimping it up everyday and there you go...no chance at all they will turn out ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This question and your repeated reference to "you" (why not just go ahead and make it "you people") is a big part of the problem. You see every black American as poor, uneducated and unmotivated while it's unlikely that anyone posting here falls under that description.

Well, yes. In my state 73 out of 74 failing schools are black 85-100%. And this is despite the fact we have a law that any student can transfer out of a failing school.

The irony is that, for all this talk about the parental role in creating successful students, you would be no more willing to send your kids to a failing school than a parent who's stuck with one.

Of course, I'm not sending my child to a failing school. I moved out of the country that had below average white schools so that we had access to good schools.

Again, the schools don't fail themselves. They fail when student fail tests and don't attend and they are measured every year. That means kids who go there today are failing today's test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:than actual poor black kids with indivdiual responsibility in poor black neighborhoods are screwed. They can go to school and get staight As and graduate completely unprepared for college and with terrible scores on national tests (remember the kid they followed in teh NPR story had teacher actually teach him something on the day they follwoed him).

Are you saying teachers don't teach anything? I don't think it's true.

I have friend who went to a very bad black school, graduated in top and got into a good college. His family couldn't afford tutors, I assure you. I also know a teacher who has been teaching at a failing school. He is a very good teacher and is very motivated. I don't believe that teachers just give up on those kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:than actual poor black kids with indivdiual responsibility in poor black neighborhoods are screwed. They can go to school and get staight As and graduate completely unprepared for college and with terrible scores on national tests (remember the kid they followed in teh NPR story had teacher actually teach him something on the day they follwoed him).

Are you saying teachers don't teach anything? I don't think it's true.

I have friend who went to a very bad black school, graduated in top and got into a good college. His family couldn't afford tutors, I assure you. I also know a teacher who has been teaching at a failing school. He is a very good teacher and is very motivated. I don't believe that teachers just give up on those kids.

Wow. So what do you make of the "teachers" who failed the honor student who was followed by the reporter highlighted in the podcast?