This American Life about desegregation in schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here, with a question about the podcast. Why do the magnet schools featured in the 2nd episode need white kids to go there or no more funding? They are clearly very good so why will funding stop if they are not at least 25% white?
It would piss me off if I were AA, that we need white kids to go there to get money.

Agreed. Similarly, I was wondering why there was no minimum requirement for the white schools. They get to choose the number of students to accept. Why can't it be the same for the Hartford magnet schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here, with a question about the podcast. Why do the magnet schools featured in the 2nd episode need white kids to go there or no more funding? They are clearly very good so why will funding stop if they are not at least 25% white?
It would piss me off if I were AA, that we need white kids to go there to get money.

Agreed. Similarly, I was wondering why there was no minimum requirement for the white schools. They get to choose the number of students to accept. Why can't it be the same for the Hartford magnet schools?

Because white people can't be forced to integrate. When John Brittain sued the state of Connecticut and won the case for desegregation, the catch was that it had to be completely voluntary. The white schools could choose how many black students they wanted to accept (and they chose low numbers), and the white parents could choose which schools they wanted to attend. If they don't attend black schools in a sufficient number, however, then it can't be called integration.

And yes, it's infuriating beyond measure that white kids are needed for those schools. Education isn't the only place on the social contract where this happens.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here, with a question about the podcast. Why do the magnet schools featured in the 2nd episode need white kids to go there or no more funding? They are clearly very good so why will funding stop if they are not at least 25% white?
It would piss me off if I were AA, that we need white kids to go there to get money.

Agreed. Similarly, I was wondering why there was no minimum requirement for the white schools. They get to choose the number of students to accept. Why can't it be the same for the Hartford magnet schools?

Because white people can't be forced to integrate. When John Brittain sued the state of Connecticut and won the case for desegregation, the catch was that it had to be completely voluntary. The white schools could choose how many black students they wanted to accept (and they chose low numbers), and the white parents could choose which schools they wanted to attend. If they don't attend black schools in a sufficient number, however, then it can't be called integration.

And yes, it's infuriating beyond measure that white kids are needed for those schools. Education isn't the only place on the social contract where this happens.

And the money from the state for the special programs only flowed if they achieved integrated schools.

[Anonymous]

But isn't the more existence of these excellent schools, despite the fact that some are not yet integrated (25% white), proof that you don't need white kids ? That, given the support, you CAN make good schools with white kids?

[Anonymous]

*mere

[Anonymous]

* without (ARGGG!!!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But isn't the more existence of these excellent schools, despite the fact that some are not yet integrated (25% white), proof that you don't need white kids ? That, given the support, you CAN make good schools with white kids?

Agreed (with what you were trying to say!), but that's not what the lawsuit was about, exactly. It wasn't about education per se, it was about a system predicated on the idea of separate but equal. The court said you have to eliminate the "separate" part of that equation, and likely forced the state to pony up the money to try and do it. If you get to the "equal" part but still have "separate" you haven't solved the problem, according to the ruling, which I assume was predicated on Brown v. Board of Education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But isn't the more existence of these excellent schools, despite the fact that some are not yet integrated (25% white), proof that you don't need white kids ? That, given the support, you CAN make good schools with white kids?

Agreed (with what you were trying to say!), but that's not what the lawsuit was about, exactly. It wasn't about education per se, it was about a system predicated on the idea of separate but equal. The court said you have to eliminate the "separate" part of that equation, and likely forced the state to pony up the money to try and do it. If you get to the "equal" part but still have "separate" you haven't solved the problem, according to the ruling, which I assume was predicated on Brown v. Board of Education.

+1. The other thing that struck me is that the point is not solely "equal" education. I would love to have equal education, but I do not personally consider the work done until it's not "separate" anymore either. I do not want my child to grow up in a homogeneous world. Well rounded people have a variety of experiences, interact with lots of different kinds of people. I know that that is hard for a lot of people on this board, which considers "diversity" to be "We have some biracial Asian kids in my child's school," to accept that their life experiences are not well rounded. I am not saying that you should move to the roughest part of the Hill you can find, but sometimes I think that it would have been much better for some of the sheltered adults I know to have experienced actual racial and socioeconomic diversity when they were children.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster here

Here is the elephant in the room

Why do many Asian and African immigrants generally break the poverty cycle in one generation while other populations don't

It's not SES because most immigrants arrive at the bottom of the SES stack so they have to attend a "crappy" school with parents working crappy long jobs but somehow the students make it

Parents are already educated. Obama father was broke but had a PH'D in Economics. Also the best and most hard working tend to immigrate to the USA. If these culture were generally hard working and high achieving there would be no reason to immigrate in the fist place. Their leaving for a REASON. Also its no different if Michelle Obama and her brother Craig (Both Ivy League graduates) immigrated to another country, I'm sure they would be more successful than the native population. Your comparing "Africans" & "Asians" groups with close to a billion people in population to black Americans with only 40 million people, kind of unfair imo

[Anonymous]

In Europe, the 'ghettos' are full of poor Africans that got therr illegally, by boat. So nothing special about Africans, just that those who make it here are a highly selected population.

[Anonymous]

So intersting new twist here

Does racial diversity matter more or socioeconomic

The good thing is racially 100 years from now all the trends point to more and more mixed people and more diversity

at the other extreme socioeconomically things are getting worse

any thoughts.....

[Anonymous]

Another thought.... what do schools actually accomplish

Most of the arguments here tend to support the proven fact that school success is generally realted to the education level of the mother which is also usually correlated to SES.

Another poster said it too teacher quality is less than 10% of the impact on the "success" of a child

just some things to think about.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another thought.... what do schools actually accomplish

Most of the arguments here tend to support the proven fact that school success is generally realted to the education level of the mother which is also usually correlated to SES.

Another poster said it too teacher quality is less than 10% of the impact on the "success" of a child

just some things to think about.....

What do schools accomplish? Surely you're joking.

They teach children to read. They teach children to do math. They teach children about history, language, culture, art. They have physical fitness programs. Some schools provide free meals to children in very low income families.

Are you new to the country such that you think it is possible to isolate race and SES completely? Are you ignorant of this country's history with race and poverty?

[Anonymous]

Watch the french movie 'The Class' and you will see America inner city in Paris...or try ' Io speriamo che me la cavo' about bad schools for poor Italian (white) children in Naples, Italy. Same thing.

[Anonymous]

It's bewildering that insist that you want to be viewed as hard working and education oriented while you fail school after school, when all failing schools are yours.

My grandma used to teach me that first you work for your reputation, then the reputation works for you.