IOWA test results and it's correlation to TJHSST

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

This is why it is better to get rid of these SIS and essays. These were introduced to increase blacks/Hispanics but they actually hurt blacks/Hispanics' chances and keep qualified black/Hispanic students out if they cannot provide the kind of essays the admissions committee wants. This is why we have qualified blacks/Hispanics not being admitted and at times weak students admitted as well. Worst of both worlds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

This is why it is better to get rid of these SIS and essays. These were introduced to increase blacks/Hispanics but they actually hurt blacks/Hispanics' chances and keep qualified black/Hispanic students out if they cannot provide the kind of essays the admissions committee wants. This is why we have qualified blacks/Hispanics not being admitted and at times weak students admitted as well. Worst of both worlds.

Hmm, I disagree actually. I think the SIS and essay give a fuller picture of the child applying and help to make sure the kids have writing skills in addition to math skills. I'd like to see them restore the requirement for three teacher recs rather than only two and maybe require one of the three to be written by the English teacher as a further check on writing skill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

This is why it is better to get rid of these SIS and essays. These were introduced to increase blacks/Hispanics but they actually hurt blacks/Hispanics' chances and keep qualified black/Hispanic students out if they cannot provide the kind of essays the admissions committee wants. This is why we have qualified blacks/Hispanics not being admitted and at times weak students admitted as well. Worst of both worlds.

Hmm, I disagree actually. I think the SIS and essay give a fuller picture of the child applying and help to make sure the kids have writing skills in addition to math skills. I'd like to see them restore the requirement for three teacher recs rather than only two and maybe require one of the three to be written by the English teacher as a further check on writing skill.

Ideally, we want students with good math skill and good writing skill but the issue is which student deserves admission more if the choice was between a student with good math skill but below average writing skill or a student with good writing skill but below average math skill (in terms of the 1,500 semifinalist applicant pool) for a STEM school? We should go with the 1st applicant but often end up with the 2nd student admitted under the current admission system. The system also keeps out students who were not able to build up their resume (blacks & Hispanics) since they will get a lower score on the SIS.

[Anonymous]

Whites will never change the admissions system since it benefits them the most even if the system disadvantages blacks and Hispanics.

[Anonymous]

Our DC got 99th percentile on Iowa, and is attending TJ. Is not Asian and is very interested in STEM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whites will never change the admissions system since it benefits them the most even if the system disadvantages blacks and Hispanics.

to get in blacks and Hispanics need to be (a) qualified and (b) interested. Can't force a square peg into a round hole - legally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

This is why it is better to get rid of these SIS and essays. These were introduced to increase blacks/Hispanics but they actually hurt blacks/Hispanics' chances and keep qualified black/Hispanic students out if they cannot provide the kind of essays the admissions committee wants. This is why we have qualified blacks/Hispanics not being admitted and at times weak students admitted as well. Worst of both worlds.

Hmm, I disagree actually. I think the SIS and essay give a fuller picture of the child applying and help to make sure the kids have writing skills in addition to math skills. I'd like to see them restore the requirement for three teacher recs rather than only two and maybe require one of the three to be written by the English teacher as a further check on writing skill.

Ideally, we want students with good math skill and good writing skill but the issue is which student deserves admission more if the choice was between a student with good math skill but below average writing skill or a student with good writing skill but below average math skill (in terms of the 1,500 semifinalist applicant pool) for a STEM school? We should go with the 1st applicant but often end up with the 2nd student admitted under the current admission system. The system also keeps out students who were not able to build up their resume (blacks & Hispanics) since they will get a lower score on the SIS.

Kids are not getting in with below average math skills but good writing skills. Rather, what is happening is that there are so many kids with advanced math skill that the ones who are getting in are the ones who also have advanced writing skill. Lots of kids in this area have advanced math skill, but they need to also know how to write. Many kids applying to TJ can do the math, but the ones who get in can do the math and write about it, too.

The SIS is not about building up a resume. The questions ask kids to write about what they like best, both in school and out of school and what they feel proud of. There's no need for a laundry list of activities, just genuine enjoyment and enthusiasm for whatever the child most likes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is an applicant with only Algebra I and not much demonstrated interest in STEM but with a skill to embellish aptitude, skill, passion and commitment to STEM on SIS and essay is more likely to get admitted than an applicant with Algebra II and accomplishments who did not provide the responses the committee readers want or are looking for with skills to exaggerate, bend and embellish the truth.

How would anyone know what applicants essays say unless they are on the committee? How would one judge an application without reading it and all the supporting materials?
It would be difficult to get away with very much exaggerating or embellishing when there are two teacher recommendations which would give insight into the truth of activities and accomplishments listed.

The teachers' recommendation letters are not serving the role of checking the truth of accomplishments and activities; they are supposed to offer opinions on the applicant's performance in the applicable class, general aptitude /skills observed in the class with maybe example(s) of conduct/activities observed in class (whether, math, science, English or social studies). The teacher would not necessarily know all the activities the applicant engages in or all the recognition the applicant received.

But committee members can see if the recs don't line up with what a child said in the SIS. I don't think most eighth graders would be sophisticated enough to keep embellishments and/or exaggerations straight enough that the committee members wouldn't see right through it.
For college applications, guidance counselors do check out the truth of what kids say, maybe the middle school counselors should do the same for TJ apps, if this is truly something that goes on.

This is why it is better to get rid of these SIS and essays. These were introduced to increase blacks/Hispanics but they actually hurt blacks/Hispanics' chances and keep qualified black/Hispanic students out if they cannot provide the kind of essays the admissions committee wants. This is why we have qualified blacks/Hispanics not being admitted and at times weak students admitted as well. Worst of both worlds.

Hmm, I disagree actually. I think the SIS and essay give a fuller picture of the child applying and help to make sure the kids have writing skills in addition to math skills. I'd like to see them restore the requirement for three teacher recs rather than only two and maybe require one of the three to be written by the English teacher as a further check on writing skill.

Ideally, we want students with good math skill and good writing skill but the issue is which student deserves admission more if the choice was between a student with good math skill but below average writing skill or a student with good writing skill but below average math skill (in terms of the 1,500 semifinalist applicant pool) for a STEM school? We should go with the 1st applicant but often end up with the 2nd student admitted under the current admission system. The system also keeps out students who were not able to build up their resume (blacks & Hispanics) since they will get a lower score on the SIS.

Kids are not getting in with below average math skills but good writing skills. Rather, what is happening is that there are so many kids with advanced math skill that the ones who are getting in are the ones who also have advanced writing skill. Lots of kids in this area have advanced math skill, but they need to also know how to write. Many kids applying to TJ can do the math, but the ones who get in can do the math and write about it, too.

The SIS is not about building up a resume. The questions ask kids to write about what they like best, both in school and out of school and what they feel proud of. There's no need for a laundry list of activities, just genuine enjoyment and enthusiasm for whatever the child most likes.

There are more than few kids graduating from TJ with calculus AB so they are not the kids with advanced math skill. Also, if the kid has not participated in mathcounts, science olympiad, AMC, robotics competition etc., what is the kid going to talk about? How is the kid going to demonstrate his/her commitment and passion to math and science if the kid was not able to participate in math/science activities? Kid can just say he/she liked his math or science class and that is going to be as good as someone discussing participating in mathcounts, science olympiad, robotics club etc.? Is that realistic?

[Anonymous]

New poster, but the problem is not everyone has access to these activities.

Every time I see people talking about Mathcounts, Science Olympiad, etc. I wonder where people get all this free time? First, when do kids get physical activity if all their after school activities are academic? I know for my kid Mathcounts conflicted with a different long term interest of hers. Science Olympiad required a parent commitment that DH and I were not able to meet. So she gets penalized for that?

It just seems so sad to me that being excited about science and math and wanting a STEM career isn't enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster, but the problem is not everyone has access to these activities.

Every time I see people talking about Mathcounts, Science Olympiad, etc. I wonder where people get all this free time? First, when do kids get physical activity if all their after school activities are academic? I know for my kid Mathcounts conflicted with a different long term interest of hers. Science Olympiad required a parent commitment that DH and I were not able to meet. So she gets penalized for that?

It just seems so sad to me that being excited about science and math and wanting a STEM career isn't enough.

The athletic activities are built around after-school academics, and most soccer games, baseball/basketball games, etc., are on the weekend.

[Anonymous]

Well, I'm glad your activities are. Ours are not. Perhaps I should have told DD in third grade to pick a different activity that would better accommodate Mathcounts? And if a kid is doing after school academic clubs and THEN going to sports practices, when do they have time to eat, do homework, talk to their families, and get to bed at a reasonable hour?

Not mention not all schools even offer these activities.

[Anonymous]

Kids are not getting in with below average math skills but good writing skills. Rather, what is happening is that there are so many kids with advanced math skill that the ones who are getting in are the ones who also have advanced writing skill. Lots of kids in this area have advanced math skill, but they need to also know how to write. Many kids applying to TJ can do the math, but the ones who get in can do the math and write about it, too.

The SIS is not about building up a resume. The questions ask kids to write about what they like best, both in school and out of school and what they feel proud of. There's no need for a laundry list of activities, just genuine enjoyment and enthusiasm for whatever the child most likes.

There are more than few kids graduating from TJ with calculus AB so they are not the kids with advanced math skill. Also, if the kid has not participated in mathcounts, science olympiad, AMC, robotics competition etc., what is the kid going to talk about? How is the kid going to demonstrate his/her commitment and passion to math and science if the kid was not able to participate in math/science activities? Kid can just say he/she liked his math or science class and that is going to be as good as someone discussing participating in mathcounts, science olympiad, robotics club etc.? Is that realistic?

They want to see that the child is excited and really likes an activity or a subject. A kid can love and do great in math and science at school and also be highly involved with a non-academic activity out if school. Lots of kids at this age are involved in sports or music or art in addition to being advanced math students. It's way more impressive to see a kid who is advanced in math and other subjects and also spends hours after school practicing a sport or a musical instrument rather than just doing more school stuff after school. Teachers can tell which kids really get a subject and learn with ease.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:New poster, but the problem is not everyone has access to these activities.

Every time I see people talking about Mathcounts, Science Olympiad, etc. I wonder where people get all this free time? First, when do kids get physical activity if all their after school activities are academic? I know for my kid Mathcounts conflicted with a different long term interest of hers. Science Olympiad required a parent commitment that DH and I were not able to meet. So she gets penalized for that?

It just seems so sad to me that being excited about science and math and wanting a STEM career isn't enough.

The athletic activities are built around after-school academics, and most soccer games, baseball/basketball games, etc., are on the weekend.

24 hours a day is a fixed constraint for all of us.
You make your choices.
Not sad at all. Just reality.

[Anonymous]

You make your choices.

Right. But my point was that choosing not to participate in a certain set of activities doesn't necessarily mean you're not a good candidate for TJ or not passionate about STEM. Kids can show that in a lot of different ways.

A kid may decide they don't want to do additional academic "clubs" during the school year, but over the summer pursue STEM learning or advance STEM interests in various ways. Or on weekends. Why is the Mathcount/Science Olympiad/Robotics club way better?

Also, these are still kids. They have limited choices available to them. They are bound to a large extent by the choices of their parents and what is offered at their particular school. Like I said, we couldn't meet the mandatory parent volunteer hours for Science Olympiad. And SO was new at our MS this last year. Kids before that couldn't do it at all.

The part that I find sad is people having such a narrow view of what makes a good candidate.