what's the difference btw William & Mary and Wake?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

Both of them have foundations?

https://wmf1693.org/

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/562038193

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

Both of them have foundations?

https://wmf1693.org/

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/562038193

I am not sure what your point is. Can you explain?

[Anonymous]

Who cares about research dollars? I want teaching. This nitpicking about research funding is pointless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who cares about research dollars? I want teaching. This nitpicking about research funding is pointless.

I agree. Many people are not aware that about 30% of R&D funding comes from institutional funds on average. This money could come from endowment or gifts, but it is very likely a significant portion comes from tuition (or appropriations) that could be put toward instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

Is your point that Princeton is a superior university compared to Wake and W&M?

Ummm … yes, of course it is. No one has claimed otherwise, and this is not the point of the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

Is your point that Princeton is a superior university compared to Wake and W&M?

Ummm … yes, of course it is. No one has claimed otherwise, and this is not the point of the thread.

No. It was just to say that neither school will ever be a research powerhouse and Princeton was used to show the gap with a school of similar size (vs. say Michigan, which is 5X larger). But I think that research is largely irrelevant for undergraduate study. That was the last paragraph.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who cares about research dollars? I want teaching. This nitpicking about research funding is pointless.

Universities care because research factors directly or indirectly in a significant part of USNWR undergraduate national university rankings: Citations and publications (4%) financial resources per student (8%), faculty salaries (6%), student-faculty ratio (3%). It also likely factors in significantly in peer assessment (20%).

Most of it has nothing to do with undergraduate education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who cares about research dollars? I want teaching. This nitpicking about research funding is pointless.

Universities care because research factors directly or indirectly in a significant part of USNWR undergraduate national university rankings: Citations and publications (4%) financial resources per student (8%), faculty salaries (6%), student-faculty ratio (3%). It also likely factors in significantly in peer assessment (20%).

Most of it has nothing to do with undergraduate education.

This is the key point. Research is a red herring in this discussion. Faculty time spent doing research is time not spent teaching undergraduates. Faculty largely rewarded for research output are not rewarded based on their teaching commitment or ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who cares about research dollars? I want teaching. This nitpicking about research funding is pointless.

Universities care because research factors directly or indirectly in a significant part of USNWR undergraduate national university rankings: Citations and publications (4%) financial resources per student (8%), faculty salaries (6%), student-faculty ratio (3%). It also likely factors in significantly in peer assessment (20%).

Most of it has nothing to do with undergraduate education.

This is the key point. Research is a red herring in this discussion. Faculty time spent doing research is time not spent teaching undergraduates. Faculty largely rewarded for research output are not rewarded based on their teaching commitment or ability.

Not a worry at either of these schools. Both are known for full professors teaching classes and mentoring students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wake has lots of rich kids. W&M prob less so.

Wake has better ROI and can compete outside of regional placement for jobs. It will get closer to top 25 in a few years.

Wak is nowhere near being a top 25

Dp, but why this again. When us news decides to eliminate the dei factors it’s used for the last year or two, Wake will likely be back on the T30, just as it was for over 25 straight years.

But we all know they won't, and since Wake isn't really looking to grow research they'll continue to be punished

Not sure why you would say Wake is no looking to grow research, they just built a large medical research facility and also added a second campus for their Medical School.

They aren't interested in being r1 as far as i can tell - no public strategy of that

R1 just means a certain level of funding has been received. William and Mary does have more research funding at the undergraduate level, but that is in arts and sciences, education, and Marine sciences.

Wake medical school alone has almost four times as much research funding as William and Mary as a whole. That research is accessible to undergraduates. In fact, my own kid easily found a position for this summer.

And it doesn't count for the rankings so like I said that's the issue Wake has

All that counts for research in the U.S. News rankings is the number of citations in journals. Schools like Wake and Willam and Mary are never going to match the number of research faculty numbers of the research powerhouses and therefore won’t benefit from this criteria.

William and Mary has $81 million in research funding, Wake has over $350 million, including the medical school. Vanderbilt, which I assume is what you mean by a mid tier private, has over $ 1 billion, with a little less than half representing the undergraduate portion.

Neither school is a research powerhouse and likely never will be. Wake had $344.4M in research funding in 2024, but 93% of that total is in Health Sciences associated with the medical center. If you take Health Sciences away, there was only $24.1M in research across the rest of the university. For W&M (which has no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D), the total was $94.6M. If you take away Ocean Sciences (VIMS), that total falls to $47.6M. Now compare that to a real heavy hitter, Princeton. Princeton is is about the same size as Wake and W&M. With no medical school and no Health Sciences R&D, Princeton had $559M in R&D in 2024. Take the area of Computer Science. Princeton did $31M in Computer Science research in 2024 compared to $5.2M at W&M and $410K at Wake. For Physics it was $34M for Princeton, $6.9M for W&M, and $1.6M for Wake. Universities have to have a foundation to support broad research and neither Wake or W&M do. If they are ever ranked higher in USNWR it will be despite research not because of it.

That said, research can be a distraction from undergraduate instruction. It certainly competes for faculty and administration attention with it. I think their value prop (not appreciated by USNWR methodology) is undergraduate education focus. In this way W&M and Wake are similar.

Is your point that Princeton is a superior university compared to Wake and W&M?

Ummm … yes, of course it is. No one has claimed otherwise, and this is not the point of the thread.

Yes, Princeton is obviously great, but the reality is you don't need to have a $35B endowment, an 8:1 student faculty ratio, and $600M in R&D to do the fundamentals of teaching. Teaching is really related more to priorities.

Despite all those resources, Princeton students rate professor engagement lower in survey responses compared to Wake and W&M:

Agree that professors put a lot of effort into teaching classes (Niche): Princeton - 75%; Wake - 91%; W&M - 93%
Agree that professors care about their students' success (Niche): Princeton - 55%; Wake - 97%; W&M - 94%
Agree that professors are approachable and helpful when needed (Niche): Princeton - 52%; Wake 92%; W&M - 94%
Professors Interesting Rating (Princeton Review): Princeton - 84/99; Wake - 94/99; W&M - 93/99
Professors Accessible Rating (Princeton Review): Princeton - 84/99; Wake - 95/99; W&M - 94/99

OK, you can throw darts at me now.

[Anonymous]

Wake is private the other is state supported.

[Anonymous]

They have a similar moderate size with a significant residential component and tend to focus more on undergraduate education than other national universities. Wake is private and W&M is public, so there is variation in cost depending on residence status. Wake tends to have comparatively more full pay wealthy students while W&M tends more to Upper Middle/Middle class. Wake is somewhat more "pre-professional" with over 22% majoring in Business and 8% in Communication/Journalism. In comparison, W&M has 11% majoring in Business and does not have Communication/Journalism. W&M has somewhat higher percentages majoring in computer, physical, and biological/life sciences. Wake is in the ACC so it has more of a sports focus. Wake is nearer a bigger city, but with its campus more separated. W&M is embedded into Williamsburg. W&M is significantly older and has more history and is still located where it was founded. Wake was founded in the 1800s, but moved to its current campus in the 1950s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They have a similar moderate size with a significant residential component and tend to focus more on undergraduate education than other national universities. Wake is private and W&M is public, so there is variation in cost depending on residence status. Wake tends to have comparatively more full pay wealthy students while W&M tends more to Upper Middle/Middle class. Wake is somewhat more "pre-professional" with over 22% majoring in Business and 8% in Communication/Journalism. In comparison, W&M has 11% majoring in Business and does not have Communication/Journalism. W&M has somewhat higher percentages majoring in computer, physical, and biological/life sciences. Wake is in the ACC so it has more of a sports focus. Wake is nearer a bigger city, but with its campus more separated. W&M is embedded into Williamsburg. W&M is significantly older and has more history and is still located where it was founded. Wake was founded in the 1800s, but moved to its current campus in the 1950s.

My son is at W&M and my daughter’s first choice was Wake but she got waitlisted. So we are pretty familiar with both schools and this is a good comparison of some key things about them. Thx.