Not enough office space: safe from RTO?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

45-90 minute commute, longer if rain, snow or accident.

No flexibility but still expected to take very early and late night calls and be on call one week a month.

Need to buy a new car.

$12 in tolls, plus gas, wear and tear on car, etc. daily

Spouse with serious health issues.

Can do the same job most days from home and have been long before covid. RTO will not have a desk, all calls and meetings will still be online, co-workers and customers all over the country and world. Supervisor is cross country.

Wnat more?

And why exactly do you think you should be able to make issues caused by your personal choices your employer's problem? Pre Covid working from the office was always the norm. Now suddenly, less than 5 years later you can't possibly imagine having to do your job from the office? Grow up or quit.

This is the problem. You think the bolded is true when it is NOT. I started my job in 2016 and had telework ability then. I could telework any day any time for any reason. 100% wasnt offered until I requested it and then it was approved because I DID MY JOB REGARDLESS OF MY LOCATION. I had a track record of being responsive and productive so it wasnt an issue and it wasnt because of a global pandemic.
Everything did not occur because of COVID. Stop using it as justification because its post-COVID.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

+1. The panic is downright bizarre. To me it gives credit to the argument that people are working less at home. Doing laundry, prepping dinner, picking up kids from school and not paying for aftercare. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in panic mode at the thought of going back.

For the millionth time - wanting to be at home at 5:00, instead of an hour away at 5:00, is not nefarious. It's how people make their lives work. Starting your day 30 minutes early so that you can take a 30 minute break later, to drive your kid between school and aftercare because there's no bus, is not nefarious it is literally people using aftercare and accounting for their time. I could give a dozen different examples.

The naysayers are chanting "I didn't have to do that pre-covid" but the fact is, a lot of people DID need to do these things pre-covid and the solution at the time was to be unemployed or underemployed in order to make the household work. So yes, RTO will be a serious income drop / career killer for people who are good at their jobs.

This, but the problem is a lot of jobs aren't 9-5, and often you have to take calls early in the AM and throughout the night. So, how is this all going ot work? The expectation is you still keep that schedule. My spouse's supervisor lives across the country, and co-workers live around the world as do the customes they interact with. The West Coast folks expect calls from 5-8 at night as they are just ramping up after lunch when East Coast are getting ready to leave. If you are a gov't employee, 9-5 may be easier but that's not the reality anymore.

The government doesn't pay enough to work 24/7, even on remote. It's also illegal for feds to work uncompensated hours

Lots of us have international calls at odd times, compensated or not, and lots of us work with people in distant US time zones like Hawaii. It's been decades since you had to do those from the office, because a phone call can be made anywhere (barring sensitive/classified info).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spouse has been RTO for about a year. There is no office space. He drives an hour, scans his badge for attendance, and works from his car in the parking lot or a table in the cafeteria. He’ll go in the building for meetings, but then back to his car for phone calls. Then 1.5 hours home.

So. So. Dumb.

This is absurd. This will be my souse too. Find a random place to sit, even if he goes in really early.

If you can work from your car then you can work from anywhere. No way would I stick around to work in my car.

No one is. Fake news.

Yes; you can fit 20-30 people in a room. You cannot fit 1000 in floor space designed for 200. It's just not possible.

If its an entire floor of a building you can fit a few hundred or more. There are no rooms anymore.

This. The closest comparison for how my company has done it is a school cafeteria. They run power strips down the center of the table in a very large room and you sit elbow to elbow with colleagues. Each seat has a docking station and double monitor. It's amazing how many people you can pack in, especially if you account for some being out sick, some on PTO, some on travel, some in a meeting, staggered schedules, some at lunch or on break, etc. The biggest issue has actually been parking and sufficient bathrooms--you can't increase the number of people at the site to such a large extent without those being choke points.

Oh, what’s the name of this company?

I am not the poster but I believe Apple has a setup like this at the new building in Silicon Valley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And I never said there had to be rooms that is your straw man. I am talking about whether 800 people can fit in about 2000 square feet of space. And the answer is no.

Most floors are more than 2000 square feet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And I never said there had to be rooms that is your straw man. I am talking about whether 800 people can fit in about 2000 square feet of space. And the answer is no.

Most floors are more than 2000 square feet

Please read more carefully. The PART of the floor that belongs to MY AGENCY is about 2000 square feet.. As explained there are other parts of the floor that do not belong to my agency and therefore do not count for our employees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

+1. The panic is downright bizarre. To me it gives credit to the argument that people are working less at home. Doing laundry, prepping dinner, picking up kids from school and not paying for aftercare. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in panic mode at the thought of going back.

You must not be very bright. People moved and rearranged Lila es based on remote work. We have hired many folks who don’t reside in the DMV.

It has nothing to do with doing no work. And our agency measures production and can prove it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

+1. The panic is downright bizarre. To me it gives credit to the argument that people are working less at home. Doing laundry, prepping dinner, picking up kids from school and not paying for aftercare. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in panic mode at the thought of going back.

you do understand the big difference between an uncertain driving commute and being able to walk to the school to pick up your kid, right?

right now, i can sign off from my desk at home as late as 5:45 and leisurely walk to get my kiddo before 6pm when aftercare ends. If I have to be at the office, I have to be out the door well before 5 because while *most days* it only takes 20 minutes to drive during rush hour, sometimes it can take over an hour. but if I have to leave the office by 4:45, that means I have to *get to* the office by 8am, which suddenly means either my partner (and I'm lucky to have a partner, not every parent does) is doing drop off (can't drop off until 8:15), I'm taking an hour of leave every school day, trying to hire someone *just* to walk the kiddo to and from school (ahahaha, good luck with that), or if I'm really lucky I'm doing maxiflex and putting an hour+ of remote work in every night after dinner. It's a stupid expense and burden AND I get less work done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

45-90 minute commute, longer if rain, snow or accident.

No flexibility but still expected to take very early and late night calls and be on call one week a month.

Need to buy a new car.

$12 in tolls, plus gas, wear and tear on car, etc. daily

Spouse with serious health issues.

Can do the same job most days from home and have been long before covid. RTO will not have a desk, all calls and meetings will still be online, co-workers and customers all over the country and world. Supervisor is cross country.

Wnat more?

And why exactly do you think you should be able to make issues caused by your personal choices your employer's problem? Pre Covid working from the office was always the norm. Now suddenly, less than 5 years later you can't possibly imagine having to do your job from the office? Grow up or quit.

This is the problem. You think the bolded is true when it is NOT. I started my job in 2016 and had telework ability then. I could telework any day any time for any reason. 100% wasnt offered until I requested it and then it was approved because I DID MY JOB REGARDLESS OF MY LOCATION. I had a track record of being responsive and productive so it wasnt an issue and it wasnt because of a global pandemic.
Everything did not occur because of COVID. Stop using it as justification because its post-COVID.

My fed dh has been teleworking a few days a week since 2007. It was a coat savings measure, so no new office space needed.

Many of these pps have no idea what they are talking about.

[Anonymous]

I think what should happen here is a proper assessment of who is continuing to work remotely or telework due to COVID, versus who was remote or teleworking prior to COVID for different reasons, such as retention/high turnover, or disability, or other non-pandemic related reasons that might be worthy of consideration. And also, a cost analysis should be had at agency unit or subunit levels. This shouldn't be one size fits all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spouse has been RTO for about a year. There is no office space. He drives an hour, scans his badge for attendance, and works from his car in the parking lot or a table in the cafeteria. He’ll go in the building for meetings, but then back to his car for phone calls. Then 1.5 hours home.

So. So. Dumb.

This is absurd. This will be my souse too. Find a random place to sit, even if he goes in really early.

If you can work from your car then you can work from anywhere. No way would I stick around to work in my car.

No one is. Fake news.

Yes; you can fit 20-30 people in a room. You cannot fit 1000 in floor space designed for 200. It's just not possible.

If its an entire floor of a building you can fit a few hundred or more. There are no rooms anymore.

This. The closest comparison for how my company has done it is a school cafeteria. They run power strips down the center of the table in a very large room and you sit elbow to elbow with colleagues. Each seat has a docking station and double monitor. It's amazing how many people you can pack in, especially if you account for some being out sick, some on PTO, some on travel, some in a meeting, staggered schedules, some at lunch or on break, etc. The biggest issue has actually been parking and sufficient bathrooms--you can't increase the number of people at the site to such a large extent without those being choke points.

This is kind of how the USFS HQ looked pre-COVID. I remember going there and thinking there was no way I would ever work at a place like that. I still wouldn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Spouse has been RTO for about a year. There is no office space. He drives an hour, scans his badge for attendance, and works from his car in the parking lot or a table in the cafeteria. He’ll go in the building for meetings, but then back to his car for phone calls. Then 1.5 hours home.

So. So. Dumb.

This is absurd. This will be my souse too. Find a random place to sit, even if he goes in really early.

If you can work from your car then you can work from anywhere. No way would I stick around to work in my car.

No one is. Fake news.

Yes; you can fit 20-30 people in a room. You cannot fit 1000 in floor space designed for 200. It's just not possible.

If its an entire floor of a building you can fit a few hundred or more. There are no rooms anymore.

This. The closest comparison for how my company has done it is a school cafeteria. They run power strips down the center of the table in a very large room and you sit elbow to elbow with colleagues. Each seat has a docking station and double monitor. It's amazing how many people you can pack in, especially if you account for some being out sick, some on PTO, some on travel, some in a meeting, staggered schedules, some at lunch or on break, etc. The biggest issue has actually been parking and sufficient bathrooms--you can't increase the number of people at the site to such a large extent without those being choke points.

This is kind of how the USFS HQ looked pre-COVID. I remember going there and thinking there was no way I would ever work at a place like that. I still wouldn't.

Sounds like a nightmare

I'm pretty sure there is a ratio of number of people per bathroom facility which should have been a control on something like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

+1. The panic is downright bizarre. To me it gives credit to the argument that people are working less at home. Doing laundry, prepping dinner, picking up kids from school and not paying for aftercare. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in panic mode at the thought of going back.

you do understand the big difference between an uncertain driving commute and being able to walk to the school to pick up your kid, right?

right now, i can sign off from my desk at home as late as 5:45 and leisurely walk to get my kiddo before 6pm when aftercare ends. If I have to be at the office, I have to be out the door well before 5 because while *most days* it only takes 20 minutes to drive during rush hour, sometimes it can take over an hour. but if I have to leave the office by 4:45, that means I have to *get to* the office by 8am, which suddenly means either my partner (and I'm lucky to have a partner, not every parent does) is doing drop off (can't drop off until 8:15), I'm taking an hour of leave every school day, trying to hire someone *just* to walk the kiddo to and from school (ahahaha, good luck with that), or if I'm really lucky I'm doing maxiflex and putting an hour+ of remote work in every night after dinner. It's a stupid expense and burden AND I get less work done.

Yes. Welcome to being a working parent.

[Anonymous]

I seriously doubt all of these people quitting jobs over RTO. How are you going to pay your bills if there aren't many telework jobs available?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We got rid of some office space during pandemic, remote employees have changed office location, although most remote employees are remote locally. Basically, some employees change teleworking status (before Covid) to remote status, with SF 50 duty station changed too.

There is no funding to get more office space (flat funding, majority of funding goes to employees' salary; while salary/other costs increase annually, there is not even enough money to fill every vacancy).

Why people are so concerned about RTO?

+1. The panic is downright bizarre. To me it gives credit to the argument that people are working less at home. Doing laundry, prepping dinner, picking up kids from school and not paying for aftercare. Otherwise they wouldn’t be in panic mode at the thought of going back.

you do understand the big difference between an uncertain driving commute and being able to walk to the school to pick up your kid, right?

right now, i can sign off from my desk at home as late as 5:45 and leisurely walk to get my kiddo before 6pm when aftercare ends. If I have to be at the office, I have to be out the door well before 5 because while *most days* it only takes 20 minutes to drive during rush hour, sometimes it can take over an hour. but if I have to leave the office by 4:45, that means I have to *get to* the office by 8am, which suddenly means either my partner (and I'm lucky to have a partner, not every parent does) is doing drop off (can't drop off until 8:15), I'm taking an hour of leave every school day, trying to hire someone *just* to walk the kiddo to and from school (ahahaha, good luck with that), or if I'm really lucky I'm doing maxiflex and putting an hour+ of remote work in every night after dinner. It's a stupid expense and burden AND I get less work done.

Yes. Welcome to being a working parent.

We are working parents and pre covid our routine was one parent gets up 4am to get to work by 530 so can leave and be home by 430 or so (still paid for after care). Other parent did morning and drop off and got home around 7 as a result. Both had “short” driving commutes of 30-45 min.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What kind of work do people do where you can concentrate with many, many people around you speaking all of the time? A call center? This can't be anything that involves any sort of mental concentration.

Frankly, very low level worker bees are responding to this, no quality work can be done in such an environment.

Yes, I'm on Teams calls a minimum of 4+ hours a day with people all over. I don't understand how that will work when we are all doing that.

At my place of work, people have headphones on and speak when they need to speak at a normal but not shouting volume. Invest in good head phones that have a noise canceling feature and it really isn't that big of a deal.

It’s actually a big deal and teams is terrible at canceling our background noise on your mic when it another person talking. It negatively impacts the people in your meeting even if they are not in the office with you.