Why is $275k hhi now so poor?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is definitely doing things wrong. Family of 4 with a lower HHI and a few million net worth. If they received a college degree, they should ask for a refund.

Easy to do when you probably had mommy and daddy money to pay for your crappy English and LA degrees.

? there are a fair number of people who grew up lower income and are now MC or UMC, myself included.

And I was not a LA major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is definitely doing things wrong. Family of 4 with a lower HHI and a few million net worth. If they received a college degree, they should ask for a refund.

Easy to do when you probably had mommy and daddy money to pay for your crappy English and LA degrees.

Ha! I’m from in er city Detroit and I’ve had to support a parent and a grandparent, so stop you sad sack story. No money from in-laws either. OP is special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP is definitely doing things wrong. Family of 4 with a lower HHI and a few million net worth. If they received a college degree, they should ask for a refund.

Easy to do when you probably had mommy and daddy money to pay for your crappy English and LA degrees.

Ha! I’m from inner city Detroit and I’ve had to support a parent and a grandparent, so stop your sad sack story. No money from in-laws either. OP is special.

OP is truly offensive. Despicable, really. They truly don’t know what it is like to be poor. They burn through a pile of money and cry poor. They are the worst kind of people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

I think people forget that aggressively saving for retirement is luxurious. Saving just 20K a year from age 30 to 65 results in a balance of $2,824,500 in today's dollars, which allows you to withdraw 9.4K/month using the 4% rule. If you're a couple, you would have double that (so 200K/year of safe retirement spending). How many posters on DCUM do we see talking about how they have 5.5M+ in retirement funds? Not that many.

I agree that 275K is a good MC/UMC income for DINKs, but like all MC/UMC families, you can get a few luxuries but not all luxuries.

I think what's happening is that, when we envision the UMC, we think of people who live in nice homes in (1) nice houses in (2) nice neighborhoods with (3) nice cars and at least (4) one international vacation a year. They also have (5) nice clothes, (6) healthy retirement savings, etc. If you look at UMC people as a whole, they probably do in fact have all of these things. However, if you look at each individual person, they probably have to prioritize 4 out of 6 of these items.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

I think people forget that aggressively saving for retirement is luxurious. Saving just 20K a year from age 30 to 65 results in a balance of $2,824,500 in today's dollars, which allows you to withdraw 9.4K/month using the 4% rule. If you're a couple, you would have double that (so 200K/year of safe retirement spending). How many posters on DCUM do we see talking about how they have 5.5M+ in retirement funds? Not that many.

I agree that 275K is a good MC/UMC income for DINKs, but like all MC/UMC families, you can get a few luxuries but not all luxuries.

I think what's happening is that, when we envision the UMC, we think of people who live in nice homes in (1) nice houses in (2) nice neighborhoods with (3) nice cars and at least (4) one international vacation a year. They also have (5) nice clothes, (6) healthy retirement savings, etc. If you look at UMC people as a whole, they probably do in fact have all of these things. However, if you look at each individual person, they probably have to prioritize 4 out of 6 of these items.

LOL. People have all kinds of visions that don’t equate to reality. The people who are showy with their money usually aren’t as financially stable. Been that way forever.

OP is just being ugly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

+1. Who DIY’s replacing a roof? Her house is probably a patchwork of one crap project after the other.

A person who wants a solar roof installed for the price of a typical, trashy asphalt shingle roof? DH and I only hire contractors for low-level, low-impact projects when we’ve run out of available time. Only so many hours in the day after all. There’s no such thing in our household as hiring a contractor to do something simply because we lack the skill or capability ourselves. Is this even a thing?!? Totally surprised to think this might be true. People can’t just read a book and figure stuff out?

I have the skills to put on a new roof---helped parents while growing up---dad did everything except HVAC. Sure, I can read and figure it out, and I used to when we were young. But now I happily outsource all of that to highly qualified people. It's called contributing to the economy.

My spouse makes close to $500/hour. They are defiantly not interested in spending their free time doing house repairs. So we pay people to do it. It's called prioritizing

Yes, but how much do you make per hour? Sounds like you’re nothing but a freeloading spend-a-lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

I think people forget that aggressively saving for retirement is luxurious. Saving just 20K a year from age 30 to 65 results in a balance of $2,824,500 in today's dollars, which allows you to withdraw 9.4K/month using the 4% rule. If you're a couple, you would have double that (so 200K/year of safe retirement spending). How many posters on DCUM do we see talking about how they have 5.5M+ in retirement funds? Not that many.

I agree that 275K is a good MC/UMC income for DINKs, but like all MC/UMC families, you can get a few luxuries but not all luxuries.

I think what's happening is that, when we envision the UMC, we think of people who live in nice homes in (1) nice houses in (2) nice neighborhoods with (3) nice cars and at least (4) one international vacation a year. They also have (5) nice clothes, (6) healthy retirement savings, etc. If you look at UMC people as a whole, they probably do in fact have all of these things. However, if you look at each individual person, they probably have to prioritize 4 out of 6 of these items.

LOL. People have all kinds of visions that don’t equate to reality. The people who are showy with their money usually aren’t as financially stable. Been that way forever.

OP is just being ugly.

Exactly!!

Lived in SV for a few years during the late 90s/early 2000s tech boom. So many people driving 60K vehicles (that would be 90K+ now), remodeling their homes, many fancy vacations each year, dining out all the time, etc. Many not fully saving (some not at all) for retirement because "my stock options are worth millions/or will be". So basically spending all their income, not saving at all because the stock options were there. Well then the market crashed, the options were worthless (or close to it). These people then had a luxury lifestyle they couldn't support and no retirement or other savings. Some had even purchased their stock options (so they'd be LT cap gains when they would be able to exercise them). Well guess what, you owe taxes on them, even if they are worthless. I know 5+ people who owed 250K-500K+ in taxes on now worthless options. Most of them had mortgages on homes that were now worth much less than they'd paid for them, so they couldn't sell without paying money to pay off the mortgage.

These were "intelligent people"/highly educated, who just figured they were entitled to spend money they didn't yet have, and failed to save for the future. At least one, who owed almost 800K in taxes and overpaid by 400K+ for a new home because they no longer liked their old home, took over a decade to "bounce back" and get on their feet. These were not unique stories, many in SV were living like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

+1. Who DIY’s replacing a roof? Her house is probably a patchwork of one crap project after the other.

A person who wants a solar roof installed for the price of a typical, trashy asphalt shingle roof? DH and I only hire contractors for low-level, low-impact projects when we’ve run out of available time. Only so many hours in the day after all. There’s no such thing in our household as hiring a contractor to do something simply because we lack the skill or capability ourselves. Is this even a thing?!? Totally surprised to think this might be true. People can’t just read a book and figure stuff out?

I have the skills to put on a new roof---helped parents while growing up---dad did everything except HVAC. Sure, I can read and figure it out, and I used to when we were young. But now I happily outsource all of that to highly qualified people. It's called contributing to the economy.

My spouse makes close to $500/hour. They are defiantly not interested in spending their free time doing house repairs. So we pay people to do it. It's called prioritizing

Yes, but how much do you make per hour? Sounds like you’re nothing but a freeloading spend-a-lot.

jealous much?

I was making $150K 25+ years ago when we made the joint decision for me to become a SAHP, to kids where the other parent was traveling 2+ weeks per month typically and would get home at 8pm most nights. There is more to contribute to a family than just a paycheck. It works for us, my spouse is quite happy with the arrangement. In reality, why are you bothered by how we spend our money? We have plenty of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP share your breakdown of monthly expenses, and we can tell you where you went wrong.

Seriously - I'm confused how buying a car would put a strain on their finances. But OP hasn't shared their budget so how would we know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

I think people forget that aggressively saving for retirement is luxurious. Saving just 20K a year from age 30 to 65 results in a balance of $2,824,500 in today's dollars, which allows you to withdraw 9.4K/month using the 4% rule. If you're a couple, you would have double that (so 200K/year of safe retirement spending). How many posters on DCUM do we see talking about how they have 5.5M+ in retirement funds? Not that many.

I agree that 275K is a good MC/UMC income for DINKs, but like all MC/UMC families, you can get a few luxuries but not all luxuries.

I think what's happening is that, when we envision the UMC, we think of people who live in nice homes in (1) nice houses in (2) nice neighborhoods with (3) nice cars and at least (4) one international vacation a year. They also have (5) nice clothes, (6) healthy retirement savings, etc. If you look at UMC people as a whole, they probably do in fact have all of these things. However, if you look at each individual person, they probably have to prioritize 4 out of 6 of these items.

+1 we've skimped on the nice clothes, and expensive cars, only do international vacations every other or third year. We do everything else above.

No kids means you aren't shelling out $3K+ every month on daycare and/or college savings, and that's excluding activities, clothes, the cost of their phone lines and food, medical bills (my kids ended up in the ER 3x, including one major surgery), and adding them to your car insurance, etc..

If people manage to do all that with $275K, then OP can manage to live a pretty good lifestyle as DINKS with that amount.

But, again, OP should post their expenses to prove us wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

+1. Who DIY’s replacing a roof? Her house is probably a patchwork of one crap project after the other.

A person who wants a solar roof installed for the price of a typical, trashy asphalt shingle roof? DH and I only hire contractors for low-level, low-impact projects when we’ve run out of available time. Only so many hours in the day after all. There’s no such thing in our household as hiring a contractor to do something simply because we lack the skill or capability ourselves. Is this even a thing?!? Totally surprised to think this might be true. People can’t just read a book and figure stuff out?

I have the skills to put on a new roof---helped parents while growing up---dad did everything except HVAC. Sure, I can read and figure it out, and I used to when we were young. But now I happily outsource all of that to highly qualified people. It's called contributing to the economy.

My spouse makes close to $500/hour. They are defiantly not interested in spending their free time doing house repairs. So we pay people to do it. It's called prioritizing

Yes, but how much do you make per hour? Sounds like you’re nothing but a freeloading spend-a-lot.

jealous much?

I was making $150K 25+ years ago when we made the joint decision for me to become a SAHP, to kids where the other parent was traveling 2+ weeks per month typically and would get home at 8pm most nights. There is more to contribute to a family than just a paycheck. It works for us, my spouse is quite happy with the arrangement. In reality, why are you bothered by how we spend our money? We have plenty of it.

Not bothered. Just embarrassed for you. I have countless acquaintances that have the option to become a SAHP. The only ones that actually choose this path, however, are those that lack the endurance and self-confidence to succeed as contributing professionals. The acquaintances I consider friends are able to rise above adversity and push through the glass ceiling, where others – much like yourself – repeatedly fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

+1. Who DIY’s replacing a roof? Her house is probably a patchwork of one crap project after the other.

A person who wants a solar roof installed for the price of a typical, trashy asphalt shingle roof? DH and I only hire contractors for low-level, low-impact projects when we’ve run out of available time. Only so many hours in the day after all. There’s no such thing in our household as hiring a contractor to do something simply because we lack the skill or capability ourselves. Is this even a thing?!? Totally surprised to think this might be true. People can’t just read a book and figure stuff out?

I have the skills to put on a new roof---helped parents while growing up---dad did everything except HVAC. Sure, I can read and figure it out, and I used to when we were young. But now I happily outsource all of that to highly qualified people. It's called contributing to the economy.

My spouse makes close to $500/hour. They are defiantly not interested in spending their free time doing house repairs. So we pay people to do it. It's called prioritizing

Yes, but how much do you make per hour? Sounds like you’re nothing but a freeloading spend-a-lot.

jealous much?

I was making $150K 25+ years ago when we made the joint decision for me to become a SAHP, to kids where the other parent was traveling 2+ weeks per month typically and would get home at 8pm most nights. There is more to contribute to a family than just a paycheck. It works for us, my spouse is quite happy with the arrangement. In reality, why are you bothered by how we spend our money? We have plenty of it.

Not bothered. Just embarrassed for you. I have countless acquaintances that have the option to become a SAHP. The only ones that actually choose this path, however, are those that lack the endurance and self-confidence to succeed as contributing professionals. The acquaintances I consider friends are able to rise above adversity and push through the glass ceiling, where others – much like yourself – repeatedly fail.

get over yourself - not everyone values the same things in life. (not PP).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

+1. Who DIY’s replacing a roof? Her house is probably a patchwork of one crap project after the other.

A person who wants a solar roof installed for the price of a typical, trashy asphalt shingle roof? DH and I only hire contractors for low-level, low-impact projects when we’ve run out of available time. Only so many hours in the day after all. There’s no such thing in our household as hiring a contractor to do something simply because we lack the skill or capability ourselves. Is this even a thing?!? Totally surprised to think this might be true. People can’t just read a book and figure stuff out?

I have the skills to put on a new roof---helped parents while growing up---dad did everything except HVAC. Sure, I can read and figure it out, and I used to when we were young. But now I happily outsource all of that to highly qualified people. It's called contributing to the economy.

My spouse makes close to $500/hour. They are defiantly not interested in spending their free time doing house repairs. So we pay people to do it. It's called prioritizing

Yes, but how much do you make per hour? Sounds like you’re nothing but a freeloading spend-a-lot.

jealous much?

I was making $150K 25+ years ago when we made the joint decision for me to become a SAHP, to kids where the other parent was traveling 2+ weeks per month typically and would get home at 8pm most nights. There is more to contribute to a family than just a paycheck. It works for us, my spouse is quite happy with the arrangement. In reality, why are you bothered by how we spend our money? We have plenty of it.

Not bothered. Just embarrassed for you. I have countless acquaintances that have the option to become a SAHP. The only ones that actually choose this path, however, are those that lack the endurance and self-confidence to succeed as contributing professionals. The acquaintances I consider friends are able to rise above adversity and push through the glass ceiling, where others – much like yourself – repeatedly fail.

get over yourself - not everyone values the same things in life. (not PP).

Agreed. Some people – like me – value investing in hard work, contributing to society, promoting education, and empowering overall health and happiness to all. Others – such as yourself, perhaps – value cutting corners, bending the rules, stealing from children, and raping society’s unbridled innocence. To each his own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop blowing smoke up my arse trying to claim $275k hhi is just fine and dandy these days. It is not. We are friggin dinks with virtually no debt except our mortgage on a very modest $625k home. We rake in $275k and are super middle class, it’s insane. Right now driving an 8 year old cheap Mazda 3 bought for $20k snd is paid off. I dread the day we need a new car, because a new car payment will place huge strain on our finances. I think we can only afford a Toyota sedan next. You’d think dinks making almost $300k could afford an Audi these days, but nope. Car insurance, home insurance, taxes, groceries……all of it demolishes you. We only take 1 vacation too per year.

Ok, we might tread water, I’ll give you that. But we aren’t THRIVING. I feel like you’ll only thrive on a $500k income these days. And that’s only from a DINK perspective! I dunno how everyone else who is poorer AND has kids survives. You all survive on malk and beans? Who knew the American dream for family people meant a life of brittle bones and cutting coupons, lol. Prices are so outta control. It is bonkers.

Try rolling up your sleeves and doing some actual work instead of outsourcing everything. No doubt you have a housecleaning service, lawn service, and pay contractors for even the simplest of home improvement tasks (e.g., putting on a new roof).

DH and I both work, have two kids, have an HHI of $250K, and have no issues saving 30% of our gross HHI while also setting aside $1K net per month for college savings. We just added a new 1000sqft composite deck, 300sqft screened porch, and 2000sqft of hardscaping and water features in NOVA for only $60K. Contractors wanted $250K for the same.

Don’t be so useless and lazy and you’ll find that $275K is plenty.

Sure Susan. Let me just go replace my roof after watching some YouTube videos, lol. Absolutely nothing could go wrong working on a home repair like that with a bad spine and multiple tons of shingles to haul up 20 feet. And all alone.

I bet allmof the quality of your DIY projects are trash, and you probably violated multiple building codes that will make it difficult to unload your garbage house. Have fun!

The roof example was ridiculous, but lots of the other points are valid.

OP, you seem to have a very warped view of what constituted middle class. I am 52, and the child of two public school teachers - pretty much the definition of middle class. Adjusting for inflation, they made a lot less that $275. A lot of the things you apparently believe were middle class stables just weren't. My parents moved 50 miles away form my father's job in order to afford the house that they wanted in an area where they wanted to raise kids. My father drove 100 miles a day for three decades, and brought a thermos of coffee (and his lunch) every day. I didn't get on a plane until I was in high school, and the first time I flew more than once in a year I was 26 years old. I never went on an international vacation with my parents. We changed the oil in our (very old) cars ourselves, and my parents didn't buy a new car until they retiremed. I didn't get food delivered until I was in college. My mother never had a housekeeper or cleaner in her life. The list goes on.

Now, our life was good - don't get me wrong. And also, a lot of the things that they did aren't really options now, and there are significant expenses now that weren't necessary back then (everyone in the family having a cell phone, for example). And today's planned obsolescence culture means that you have to replace expensive items that 4 decades ago could be fixed, and used for much longer. I get all that.

But the point is that you have this picture of a middle class lifestyle that really isn't accurate, and it is affecting your perception of how well you are doing, and how well you should be doing.

This is a good point. People complain about how expensive rent is, but the places that are 2.5K+ for a 1 bedroom are new buildings with huge windows, a nice gym, game room, work from home pods, and "luxury finishes." While it is true that luxury apartment buildings are now 50%+ of the supply in DC, the new generation doesn't want to live in an apartment building from 20 years ago with linoleum floors. In addition, I don't think people felt required to go to the nail salon every 2 weeks, or go to Starbucks every day, or grab take-out instead of cooking yourself. These things were considered treats, not staples.

My family was middle class and we didn't take any trips until I was in middle school. The only international trips were with my family, after I went to college, and when my parents were making more. Now I take an international trip at least once a year. I think we tend to forget that, in some respects, we're doing a lot more than our parents did when they were our age.

That said, I still agree with OP. I would have thought that 275K HHI would go further for DINKs than how far it actually goes. I would have at least expected that OP could go to Starbucks every day with some money leftover after purchasing only a 650K home.

I totally agree that OP is conflating middle class with being able to aggressively save for retirement and still afford nice luxuries. But there is also truth to 275k not going as far as it used to because inflation. However, I think OP should really be saying that her income doesn’t afford the full UMC lifestyle (although without kids I don’t see how she is stretched). For a family of 4 (2 parents, 2 kids) I could see how 275k feels like the lower end of UMC and you would have to make budget cuts that families making closer to 350-400k don’t necessarily have to make.

My family has a 300k HHI and we still have to save up for big purchases, budget out our travel, pick and choose where to prioritize spending. This income in the DC area does not afford all the things my childhood self would have envisioned it could. But I could never ever ever claim we are poor. My children have never gone hungry, slept in a home we couldn’t afford to heat, been left alone because I couldn’t afford childcare to go to work, etc. OP’s definitions of poor and MC need adjustment.

I think people forget that aggressively saving for retirement is luxurious. Saving just 20K a year from age 30 to 65 results in a balance of $2,824,500 in today's dollars, which allows you to withdraw 9.4K/month using the 4% rule. If you're a couple, you would have double that (so 200K/year of safe retirement spending). How many posters on DCUM do we see talking about how they have 5.5M+ in retirement funds? Not that many.

I agree that 275K is a good MC/UMC income for DINKs, but like all MC/UMC families, you can get a few luxuries but not all luxuries.

I think what's happening is that, when we envision the UMC, we think of people who live in nice homes in (1) nice houses in (2) nice neighborhoods with (3) nice cars and at least (4) one international vacation a year. They also have (5) nice clothes, (6) healthy retirement savings, etc. If you look at UMC people as a whole, they probably do in fact have all of these things. However, if you look at each individual person, they probably have to prioritize 4 out of 6 of these items.

LOL. People have all kinds of visions that don’t equate to reality. The people who are showy with their money usually aren’t as financially stable. Been that way forever.

OP is just being ugly.

Exactly!!

Lived in SV for a few years during the late 90s/early 2000s tech boom. So many people driving 60K vehicles (that would be 90K+ now), remodeling their homes, many fancy vacations each year, dining out all the time, etc. Many not fully saving (some not at all) for retirement because "my stock options are worth millions/or will be". So basically spending all their income, not saving at all because the stock options were there. Well then the market crashed, the options were worthless (or close to it). These people then had a luxury lifestyle they couldn't support and no retirement or other savings. Some had even purchased their stock options (so they'd be LT cap gains when they would be able to exercise them). Well guess what, you owe taxes on them, even if they are worthless. I know 5+ people who owed 250K-500K+ in taxes on now worthless options. Most of them had mortgages on homes that were now worth much less than they'd paid for them, so they couldn't sell without paying money to pay off the mortgage.

These were "intelligent people"/highly educated, who just figured they were entitled to spend money they didn't yet have, and failed to save for the future. At least one, who owed almost 800K in taxes and overpaid by 400K+ for a new home because they no longer liked their old home, took over a decade to "bounce back" and get on their feet. These were not unique stories, many in SV were living like this.

Yep