Harvard will require Test Scores starting next year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:yep.
Whatever will the 4/4.6 1390 poor test-taking children of DCUM do?

ED to Tulane.

Tulane Class of 2027 enrolled students average SAT is 1448 and ACT is 33. Not sure Tulane is happening with a 1390.

Oh please. If Tulane required all students to submit SAT or ACT scores the avg. would be closer to 1228 and 31. Only kids with 1300+ submit SATs and the university says a 'majority' of 2027s did not submit (but what won't say what percent - why?).

Average (recalculated & unweighted) GPA: 3.7
Average SAT: 1448*
Average ACT: 33*

*Submitting SAT or ACT scores is optional at Tulane. For the Class of 2027, a majority of enrolling students did not submit test scores.

The 2023-24 CDS reports that 14% submitted SATs and 31% ACT.

So top 14% of students at Tulane score 1450 on their SATs. That's a far cry from the average Tulane student scoring 1450. When mandatory test scores are required colleges & universities outside the Top 25 are going to see their SAT numbers plummet. Before the pandemic, the average SAT was 1060 and 90th percentile was 1340. If a school only admits 5% (Ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc),then 90th percentile is not good enough. But for most schools, scoring in 90th percentile will help get you in.

But this is exactly why schools like Tulane will stay test-optional forever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

So they are class biased and class skews by race? What’s the difference ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

The SAT is less biased than letters of rec, sports, activities, and GPA. It is one of the least biased parts of an application.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

why is this late? the SAT is a test of the most basic English and Math skills. If you need months and months of prep on topics you should have already mastered, you probably have bigger problems than the application deadlines next fall.

mostly bcs may and June seats are full

Well presumably any kid applying to Harvard has already registered or taken the SAT/ACT.

They just didn’t submit their scores. So now they’ll have to.

Will they have already taken it twice, as many juniors have already who had such plans, thereby giving them a third or fourth sitting to look forward to in June and August? Harvard could have said no superscores for class of 2025 if they insisted on renouncing their established policy so late.

Everyone is in the same boat. The kids who have taken it 2-3 times already are on the ball and will get the advantage (and that's not a bad thing).

“Everyone is in the same boat” whether they took the SATs twice or six times? Interesting boat.

And it’s “not a bad thing” for kids to already be on pace to take the SAT 5X? And these are the kids who are “on the ball” and should be rewarded?
Oh, my.

+1

The standardized testing industry is a racket.

And get rid of super scoring.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I mean, obviously. The test optional thing was a weird experiment and there is no evidence that it accomplished anything useful, and some evidence it was genuinely detrimental. Good riddance.

Being good at taking tests is not the most important thing in life and everyone should remind themselves of that. But it turns out that people who do test well, and are able to get very high scores on college preparedness tests, tend to also do best in college, where they will also be expected to regularly take tests. It's okay that not everyone goes to an Ivy, or becomes a lawyer or doctor or academic or MBA or whatever. It's not the only option in life.[/quote]

Just realize that Harvard isn't going to accept your kids with a 1580 over one with a 1500 based on the SAT alone. They will consider them "the same"/made the cut, and then look at everything else. I don't think requiring tests will have the effect most "high stats" parents want.
Fact is T20 schools only want to see your kid meet a baseline for the testing, then they still want to look at everything else. A 1600 doesn't differentiate your kid from a 1520 kid really.
These schools will still be highly rejective.
[/quote]

I think everyone knows this. What they object to is a 1300 SAT kid who hides that score, goes TO and gets in on some 'woke' quota. Hopefully this fixes that![/quote]

Woke quota?! Omg I never cease to be amazed by the things that people will actually say (type). [b]Do you assume that the URM students that you see have lower scores? [/b]How racist.[/quote]

I assume the bolded is true because, in fact, this is exactly what Harvard's own data showed in the discovery portion of the SCt case[/quote]

Not only is the PP is who too short on vocabulary to express what they're trying to say a jerk, but they're also flat-out wrong. In fact, the reinstatement of test scores is so they CAN let in students with lower scores. Maybe 1300 will be a little low, but not, they can see that students with high GPAs from little-known or underperforming schools are capable of doing the work at their universities--and 1400 SAT scores prove that. All this narrative about the highest scores doing "the best" in college really doesn't matter. Students with 1400 scores and high GPAs from their high schools deserve an opportunity to have an excellent education. They don't have to be top students in the Ivy League, they just deserve the chance. Reinstatement of test scores allows that to happen. Again, understand, this is not to put a barrier in front of students with lower scores who were "hiding" them. It is to remove it. [/quote]

Thank you, thank you for this explanation. I thought this decision threw my DD’s chances way back but hopefully not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

why is this late? the SAT is a test of the most basic English and Math skills. If you need months and months of prep on topics you should have already mastered, you probably have bigger problems than the application deadlines next fall.

mostly bcs may and June seats are full

Well presumably any kid applying to Harvard has already registered or taken the SAT/ACT.

They just didn’t submit their scores. So now they’ll have to.

Will they have already taken it twice, as many juniors have already who had such plans, thereby giving them a third or fourth sitting to look forward to in June and August? Harvard could have said no superscores for class of 2025 if they insisted on renouncing their established policy so late.

Everyone is in the same boat. The kids who have taken it 2-3 times already are on the ball and will get the advantage (and that's not a bad thing).

“Everyone is in the same boat” whether they took the SATs twice or six times? Interesting boat.

And it’s “not a bad thing” for kids to already be on pace to take the SAT 5X? And these are the kids who are “on the ball” and should be rewarded?
Oh, my.

+1

The standardized testing industry is a racket.

And get rid of super scoring.

Standardized testing fits the need for independent and uniform across the nation evaluation and to combat rampant grade inflation.

Why is standardized testing more biased than grades for example?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

The southern flagship schools that stayed test required and dumped huge merit amounts into high stat/high SAT out of state students played this game very well and are now calling checkmate on the ivies and northern schoos thwt jumped on the test optional bandwagon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You people are insane. Who GAF what Harvard does and whether or not they get the "best" by whatever standard you apply. The vast majority of your kids are not getting into Harvard.

(And no I do not think a test score is indicative of whether you'd do well at any school. There are a lot of factors that play into that.)

Studies have show that a high SAT score is indicative of how well a student will perform in college. The UC study found exactly this. That's why schools like MIT and Caltech, others, and now Harvard are bringing back tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

why is this late? the SAT is a test of the most basic English and Math skills. If you need months and months of prep on topics you should have already mastered, you probably have bigger problems than the application deadlines next fall.

mostly bcs may and June seats are full

Well presumably any kid applying to Harvard has already registered or taken the SAT/ACT.

They just didn’t submit their scores. So now they’ll have to.

Will they have already taken it twice, as many juniors have already who had such plans, thereby giving them a third or fourth sitting to look forward to in June and August? Harvard could have said no superscores for class of 2025 if they insisted on renouncing their established policy so late.

Everyone is in the same boat. The kids who have taken it 2-3 times already are on the ball and will get the advantage (and that's not a bad thing).

“Everyone is in the same boat” whether they took the SATs twice or six times? Interesting boat.

And it’s “not a bad thing” for kids to already be on pace to take the SAT 5X? And these are the kids who are “on the ball” and should be rewarded?
Oh, my.

+1

The standardized testing industry is a racket.

And get rid of super scoring.

Standardized testing fits the need for independent and uniform across the nation evaluation and to combat rampant grade inflation.

Why is standardized testing more biased than grades for example?

With digital SAT, test-takers receive different questions. Everyone takes his/her own test. So it is not standardized the way it was in the past. But go on thinking it still is and feel free to continue regurgitating your ancient talking points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

DP, why the snark of throwing around community college as an insult and looking down at them? Give an example of a straight math problem that can be biased. Not sure what you were trying to demonstrate bringing up your LD kids at “top 20” colleges.

Again, think a little, and maybe you can make some conclusions on your own. Standardized tests, straight math, most of US style of teaching, are biased. This is not even arguable. It's not accessible to all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:test optional was a failed experiment

it wasn't an experiment it was due to testing centers closing during the pandemic

My 2023 and 2024 kids had plenty of opportunities to take and retake the SAT over most of their high school years.

The only graduating years that should have been test optional was class of 2021.

Instead, they doubled down on test optional, and ended up with a bunch of kids from the "you get an A if you login to most of your classes and do this quizlet" generation with school shut-down inflated grades, lack of skills needed for rigorous classes, and no impartial SAT to show whether or not they possessed the intellect to overcome the significant deficiencies of their pandemic "school" years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:this is for current Juniors? my kid has no interest in Harvard, but this seems really really late to make this call for this class

Your kid has the opportunity to take an SAT at least 3 times before they start on college applications.

It is not too late at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My own kids are not applying to Harvard, but as a professor of mostly undergraduate students I applaud this. It's one data point that is, like ACTs and APs, scaled nationally. Grades are hyper inflated at many high schools and rigor varies too much across schools to be helpful to an admissions committee who is comparing students across the country, indeed even internationally.
Also, my unpopular opinion is that SATs are not racially biased. The scores are a reflection of reality -Black and Hispanic kids don't do well because they are relatively impoverished compared to other populations. Also, straight math problems (not word problems) logically cannot indicate bias.

Community college professor? Yes, straight math problems logically can be biased, especially in the way they are taught in schools. Think critically just a little. Hope you're not one of my children's professors. But they're both students with LDs at top 20 universities, so I'm guessing not.

The SAT is less biased than letters of rec, sports, activities, and GPA. It is one of the least biased parts of an application.

+100