Why are kids with extreme behavior issues being mainstreamed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few SES kids came to my kid's ES this year. They all have shadows. One of them seems to be violent and it is causing anxiety in several kids in the class. This kid has tried lifting a 3rd grader by the neck before. Not sure if the 3rd grader's parents were notified.

Today was a whole new issue. At recess this SES kid ran to another kid in same class who is bigger than him, and tried to tackle him but SES shadow pulled him away. Then he ran to another kid half his size, put his arm around that kid's neck and started punching him in the cheek with other hand. The shadow ran again and pulled him away. My kid says the other kid was crying. After this the SES kid went to teacher's bathroom and knocked a painting that was there.

A few hours later SES kid ran into the class where the 1st child whom he tried to tackle was, went up to him, put a pair of scissors against him and told him "I wanna F'ing kill you. This is attempted murder". The shadow pulled him away. The new teacher started crying.

If I were the parent of any of these other children, I would raise a stink.

What is the purpose of having these kids with extreme behavior issues mainstreamed at the risk of causing fear in other students as well as teachers? Shouldn't they be in self contained classes? There are 2 other SES kids who are not aggressive so those kids being mainstreamed makes sense. But this does not.

My kid likes the school but does not feel safe when things like this happen.

I guess we've been lucky that our title 1 school doesn't have these issues.

That you are aware of

Schools tend to bury these issues and hope nobody contacts the police.

Why would the school care? If this was a high schooler, then yes, the police could investigate and potentially charge the child with a crime. But since we're talking about a fifth grader, there's no chargeable offense to investigate. Do these posters really no understand that?

Attempted murder sounds like a police issue to me.

Op here. I want to clarify. He put the scissors against the other child and threatened him saying "I wanna f***ing kill you. This is attempted murder" and was pulled away by aide. He did not actually stab the other kid who is much bigger than him. I doubt that qualifies as attempted murder even for an NT kid.

At 10-11 years old, I believe he just needs placement elsewhere, and not a police report. Kids with these kind of behavior issues need self containment. There is a behavior support specialist listed on school website. Not sure if that person oversees all these SES kids or just this one kid.

You do know that 12 year olds are carjacking and commit murder sometimes? Crossing our fingers and hoping that this child can be socialized by mainstreaming him is naive. An encounter with police would at least communicate the seriousness of his behavior to him and his parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I offered to do so. They don't allow it.

I offered to do it myself. No way, no how.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You guys aren't blaming MSDE enough. They are on MCPS's case behind the scenes for too high a percentage of kids identified as needing special education, and too many self-contained programs.

From page 318 of the MCPS FY2023 budget:

"According to the October 1, 2021, census data report from MSDE, percent of students with disabilities were served in the general education environment, LRE A, and percent of students with disabilities were served in LRE C. MCPS did not meet the MSDE target of 70.00 percent of students with disabilities served in LRE A, nor the MSDE target of 11.75percent for students with disabilities served in LRE C. "

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/budget/fy2023/fy2023_budgetsummary_final.pdf

Where did these arbitrary numbers of 70% and 11.75% come from? Who knows, but some bureaucrats in Annapolis think that's what everyone should do and that is why MCPS is arbitrarily shoving kids into the wrong LRE, because MSDE is on their backs about it.

Thank you for pointing this out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

No, Florida doesn't automatically agree to pay for private placement. They have a voucher program that would cover a small fraction of what a high-support special education program costs. And even if it covered everything, there is a shortage of seats in programs.

It does go a long way, though, in allowing parents to explore other options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few SES kids came to my kid's ES this year. They all have shadows. One of them seems to be violent and it is causing anxiety in several kids in the class. This kid has tried lifting a 3rd grader by the neck before. Not sure if the 3rd grader's parents were notified.

Today was a whole new issue. At recess this SES kid ran to another kid in same class who is bigger than him, and tried to tackle him but SES shadow pulled him away. Then he ran to another kid half his size, put his arm around that kid's neck and started punching him in the cheek with other hand. The shadow ran again and pulled him away. My kid says the other kid was crying. After this the SES kid went to teacher's bathroom and knocked a painting that was there.

A few hours later SES kid ran into the class where the 1st child whom he tried to tackle was, went up to him, put a pair of scissors against him and told him "I wanna F'ing kill you. This is attempted murder". The shadow pulled him away. The new teacher started crying.

If I were the parent of any of these other children, I would raise a stink.

What is the purpose of having these kids with extreme behavior issues mainstreamed at the risk of causing fear in other students as well as teachers? Shouldn't they be in self contained classes? There are 2 other SES kids who are not aggressive so those kids being mainstreamed makes sense. But this does not.

My kid likes the school but does not feel safe when things like this happen.

I guess we've been lucky that our title 1 school doesn't have these issues.

That you are aware of

Schools tend to bury these issues and hope nobody contacts the police.

Why would the school care? If this was a high schooler, then yes, the police could investigate and potentially charge the child with a crime. But since we're talking about a fifth grader, there's no chargeable offense to investigate. Do these posters really no understand that?

Attempted murder sounds like a police issue to me.

Op here. I want to clarify. He put the scissors against the other child and threatened him saying "I wanna f***ing kill you. This is attempted murder" and was pulled away by aide. He did not actually stab the other kid who is much bigger than him. I doubt that qualifies as attempted murder even for an NT kid.

At 10-11 years old, I believe he just needs placement elsewhere, and not a police report. Kids with these kind of behavior issues need self containment. There is a behavior support specialist listed on school website. Not sure if that person oversees all these SES kids or just this one kid.

You do know that 12 year olds are carjacking and commit murder sometimes? Crossing our fingers and hoping that this child can be socialized by mainstreaming him is naive. An encounter with police would at least communicate the seriousness of his behavior to him and his parents.

Again, the police can't do anything here under Maryland law.

If throwing 10-year-olds with disabilities in jail is that important of a cause to you, then you should begin a campaign to change the law. Of course, you'll have to attach your name to the cause, but I'm sure that's not a concern given how important this is to you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

No, Florida doesn't automatically agree to pay for private placement. They have a voucher program that would cover a small fraction of what a high-support special education program costs. And even if it covered everything, there is a shortage of seats in programs.

It does go a long way, though, in allowing parents to explore other options.

No, it doesn't. The vouchers are only useful to families of students with low support needs who do not need to go into special education programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it all boils down to there's no where else to put these kids.

Homeschool

+100

Yes, you're free to homeschool your own kids. As long as you're ok screwing them up for life.

Why do you think that homeschooling would screw kids up for life (assuming an actual curriculum and not Duggar-style “school”)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

No, Florida doesn't automatically agree to pay for private placement. They have a voucher program that would cover a small fraction of what a high-support special education program costs. And even if it covered everything, there is a shortage of seats in programs.

It does go a long way, though, in allowing parents to explore other options.

No, it doesn't. The vouchers are only useful to families of students with low support needs who do not need to go into special education programs.

+1

The amount is relatively low and not helptful. Most are paying a lot out of pocket. Many go to private in Florida because the public school system is not the best in most places.

[Anonymous]

We don't have anything close to what the OP describes at our kids' schools, but sure, there are always 2-to 3 disruptive students who take up 90% of the teacher's time. In the old days, they'd be sent to the office or suspended until they could behave. Today everyone suffers because of them and it reduces the quality of education for everyone else.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about Florida, but in Maryland the high-support private special education programs only accept students who have been referred from their school district or county. I strongly suspect it is the same in Florida.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few SES kids came to my kid's ES this year. They all have shadows. One of them seems to be violent and it is causing anxiety in several kids in the class. This kid has tried lifting a 3rd grader by the neck before. Not sure if the 3rd grader's parents were notified.

Today was a whole new issue. At recess this SES kid ran to another kid in same class who is bigger than him, and tried to tackle him but SES shadow pulled him away. Then he ran to another kid half his size, put his arm around that kid's neck and started punching him in the cheek with other hand. The shadow ran again and pulled him away. My kid says the other kid was crying. After this the SES kid went to teacher's bathroom and knocked a painting that was there.

A few hours later SES kid ran into the class where the 1st child whom he tried to tackle was, went up to him, put a pair of scissors against him and told him "I wanna F'ing kill you. This is attempted murder". The shadow pulled him away. The new teacher started crying.

If I were the parent of any of these other children, I would raise a stink.

What is the purpose of having these kids with extreme behavior issues mainstreamed at the risk of causing fear in other students as well as teachers? Shouldn't they be in self contained classes? There are 2 other SES kids who are not aggressive so those kids being mainstreamed makes sense. But this does not.

My kid likes the school but does not feel safe when things like this happen.

I guess we've been lucky that our title 1 school doesn't have these issues.

That you are aware of

Schools tend to bury these issues and hope nobody contacts the police.

Why would the school care? If this was a high schooler, then yes, the police could investigate and potentially charge the child with a crime. But since we're talking about a fifth grader, there's no chargeable offense to investigate. Do these posters really no understand that?

Attempted murder sounds like a police issue to me.

Op here. I want to clarify. He put the scissors against the other child and threatened him saying "I wanna f***ing kill you. This is attempted murder" and was pulled away by aide. He did not actually stab the other kid who is much bigger than him. I doubt that qualifies as attempted murder even for an NT kid.

At 10-11 years old, I believe he just needs placement elsewhere, and not a police report. Kids with these kind of behavior issues need self containment. There is a behavior support specialist listed on school website. Not sure if that person oversees all these SES kids or just this one kid.

You do know that 12 year olds are carjacking and commit murder sometimes? Crossing our fingers and hoping that this child can be socialized by mainstreaming him is naive. An encounter with police would at least communicate the seriousness of his behavior to him and his parents.

MCPD refuses to enforce laws in our magical law free schools.

[Anonymous]

I worked in a school once that had mostly kids from a very violent neighborhood. These kids lived with violence on a daily basis in their homes and community. They weren't classed as SEN as the school was in their neighborhood and most of the students came from similar backgrounds.

It was very eye opening to me. These kids used violence and threatened violence just in how they expressed themselves and in how they dealt with any frustration. Having never really been in that kind of neighborhood until I taught at that school, I had never been exposed to this. They were all pretty traumatized and used threats of violence or acts of aggression to keep themselves safe. In one grade 3 class a little girl did stab another student with scissors for some minor thing he did. They were also always threatening to have their older siblings or other family members find and hurt the kid or the kids family members. They also mostly lived in chaotic environments and so that is what they knew and recreated at school. They were also more comfortable with anger than kindness and tended to try to provoke anger to again create a reaction they were more comfortable with.

This might be different than a behaviour issue in a kid from a good home and neighborhood but it was clear that children act on what they learn in their daily lives. Had one of these students transferred to a school in a good neighborhood, they likely would have been just like the kid you described. But in their home school and neighborhood, they were just like all the rest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it all boils down to there's no where else to put these kids.

Homeschool

+100

Yes, you're free to homeschool your own kids. As long as you're ok screwing them up for life.

Why do you think that homeschooling would screw kids up for life (assuming an actual curriculum and not Duggar-style “school”)?

Not PP but I’m assuming it’s because the kid is higher needs than most and therefore needs more assistance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are these violent kids allowed in school? Make them return to virtual school like we had in the pandemic. Why are we risking the lives of everyone else?

Pp here —- Virtual is not a panacea. It’s worse for many SN kids so not appropriate.

All children in this country are entitled to a free and appropriate public education. It’s the law.

It’s not the kid’s fault if they have a disability….(yes emotional disabilities are still protected.) The problem it’s the lack of options and process for appropriate placement that is the issue.

OP this is why these violent kids are mainstreamed. It the parents.

This one shows zero empathy for the education of dozens of students that her kid is ruining. Not to mention the daily terror and learning to hate school she and her child are creating.

I’m not sure where you got the idea this parent said kids with severe emotional disabilities need to be mainstreamed. What they are suggesting is that you could show empathy for ALL kids and not assume kids with emotional disabilities are somehow evil. Personally, I’ve spent thousands of dollars and countless time trying to get my kid a better placement with very little success. Stop blaming the parents- you truly have no idea.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are these violent kids allowed in school? Make them return to virtual school like we had in the pandemic. Why are we risking the lives of everyone else?

Pp here —- Virtual is not a panacea. It’s worse for many SN kids so not appropriate.

All children in this country are entitled to a free and appropriate public education. It’s the law.

It’s not the kid’s fault if they have a disability….(yes emotional disabilities are still protected.) The problem it’s the lack of options and process for appropriate placement that is the issue.

OP this is why these violent kids are mainstreamed. It the parents.

This one shows zero empathy for the education of dozens of students that her kid is ruining. Not to mention the daily terror and learning to hate school she and her child are creating.

I’m not sure where you got the idea this parent said kids with severe emotional disabilities need to be mainstreamed. What they are suggesting is that you could show empathy for ALL kids and not assume kids with emotional disabilities are somehow evil. Personally, I’ve spent thousands of dollars and countless time trying to get my kid a better placement with very little success. Stop blaming the parents- you truly have no idea.

Why did you even have kids if you couldn't afford $80k/year for self-pay private placement?

/s