Why are kids with extreme behavior issues being mainstreamed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it all boils down to there's no where else to put these kids.

Homeschool

+100

Yes, you're free to homeschool your own kids. As long as you're ok screwing them up for life.

Do you really think a violent scissor attack would be better?

Absolutely. But if you prefer to be the one that screws up your kid, then go ahead.

The violent kids are the ones that need homeschool.

You can't force other students/parents to homeschool.

The parents are responsible for the violence and disruption their kids inflict on others. The parents send their kids to school knowing what will happen. Guilty.

Did you just have a stroke?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it all boils down to there's no where else to put these kids.

Homeschool

+100

Yes, you're free to homeschool your own kids. As long as you're ok screwing them up for life.

Do you really think a violent scissor attack would be better?

Absolutely. But if you prefer to be the one that screws up your kid, then go ahead.

The violent kids are the ones that need homeschool.

You can't force other students/parents to homeschool.

The parents are responsible for the violence and disruption their kids inflict on others. The parents send their kids to school knowing what will happen. Guilty.

Did you just have a stroke?

Stroke of genius

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few SES kids came to my kid's ES this year. They all have shadows. One of them seems to be violent and it is causing anxiety in several kids in the class. This kid has tried lifting a 3rd grader by the neck before. Not sure if the 3rd grader's parents were notified.

Today was a whole new issue. At recess this SES kid ran to another kid in same class who is bigger than him, and tried to tackle him but SES shadow pulled him away. Then he ran to another kid half his size, put his arm around that kid's neck and started punching him in the cheek with other hand. The shadow ran again and pulled him away. My kid says the other kid was crying. After this the SES kid went to teacher's bathroom and knocked a painting that was there.

A few hours later SES kid ran into the class where the 1st child whom he tried to tackle was, went up to him, put a pair of scissors against him and told him "I wanna F'ing kill you. This is attempted murder". The shadow pulled him away. The new teacher started crying.

If I were the parent of any of these other children, I would raise a stink.

What is the purpose of having these kids with extreme behavior issues mainstreamed at the risk of causing fear in other students as well as teachers? Shouldn't they be in self contained classes? There are 2 other SES kids who are not aggressive so those kids being mainstreamed makes sense. But this does not.

My kid likes the school but does not feel safe when things like this happen.

Never had this at my kids MCPS schools so seems to be isolated.

Are you in an affluent area? The SES kids with shadows are all new to the school. No idea where they went to school before since they don't interact much with my kid. Maybe MCPS is trying out something new. I just wish it wasn't at our school. Last year was uneventful. Our Principal is very inclusive and we like him. I believe he will do what is right for the rest of the kids and get this kid moved.

From what my child says, I think there are about 7 or 8 kids with shadows across the grades who came in new this year. Three in the 5th grade, 2 are fine and then there is this kid. I believe they are allowed to do what they want and shadow/aide follows them everywhere. A younger kid with a shadow, in another grade, caused a school lockdown by trying to run out of the school and many teachers had to restrain him.

It sounds like they have disbanded a special ed program elsewhere or moved it to your school and it's not working.

There was an SES program at my child's school and it was never like this. You barely noticed any difference between the kids in the SES program and the other mainstreamed kids. If there was a child close to a meltdown a para would help them leave the classroom and they would return when they were better. DC was friends with some of these kids and really I couldn't tell which kids were in the program and which were not. I've never heard of any violence towards other kids. Most of these kids ended up "graduating" from the program and just became regular mainstream students. I did hear of one that went to a more restrictive placement but that was an exception. This was over six full years.

Has someone contacted the district special ed superintendent to send more resources to the school or talked to the person who runs the SES program there about what's going on? The problem is not the kids. It's that someone is not allocating sufficient help for those kids.

You may be right. I see a "Behavior Support Teacher" and a lot of "Paraeducator Spec Ed" on our school directory.

I have no idea if anyone has contacted district special ed superintendent.

According to my kid, this child has had 2 aides/shadows recently. My kid thinks the new person could be the Dad because they look like Dad and son, but who knows. If it was really the Dad, I guess he now has a case for his child to be moved instead of waiting one year like the PP said, since he was there during the recess event. The Principal has not addressed the recess event though and I'm surprised because the entire grade witnessed that and kids talk.

OP you don't need to wait one year for a child to be moved. Make no mistake parents in this situation are BEGGING for their children to be moved but it requires documentation and sign off from the district which can take a lot of time.

It can go both ways. Parents can be begging for an outplacement while at the same time rejecting the outplacement the school comes up with because they want to hold out for a different one that they believe is better. I recall a situation like this where the student (age 8) was in a self contained classroom with a sped teacher and a few paras and maybe one or two other kids sometimes for about six+ months before the parents and the school could agree on a placement and the one they agreed on had an opening. Nothing about finding the right placement for a violent dangerous kid is simple. And by the way, homeschooling is NOT the answer for many reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

[Anonymous]

You guys aren't blaming MSDE enough. They are on MCPS's case behind the scenes for too high a percentage of kids identified as needing special education, and too many self-contained programs.

From page 318 of the MCPS FY2023 budget:

"According to the October 1, 2021, census data report from MSDE, percent of students with disabilities were served in the general education environment, LRE A, and percent of students with disabilities were served in LRE C. MCPS did not meet the MSDE target of 70.00 percent of students with disabilities served in LRE A, nor the MSDE target of 11.75percent for students with disabilities served in LRE C. "

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/budget/fy2023/fy2023_budgetsummary_final.pdf

Where did these arbitrary numbers of 70% and 11.75% come from? Who knows, but some bureaucrats in Annapolis think that's what everyone should do and that is why MCPS is arbitrarily shoving kids into the wrong LRE, because MSDE is on their backs about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You guys aren't blaming MSDE enough. They are on MCPS's case behind the scenes for too high a percentage of kids identified as needing special education, and too many self-contained programs.

From page 318 of the MCPS FY2023 budget:

"According to the October 1, 2021, census data report from MSDE, percent of students with disabilities were served in the general education environment, LRE A, and percent of students with disabilities were served in LRE C. MCPS did not meet the MSDE target of 70.00 percent of students with disabilities served in LRE A, nor the MSDE target of 11.75percent for students with disabilities served in LRE C. "

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/siteassets/district/departments/budget/fy2023/fy2023_budgetsummary_final.pdf

Where did these arbitrary numbers of 70% and 11.75% come from? Who knows, but some bureaucrats in Annapolis think that's what everyone should do and that is why MCPS is arbitrarily shoving kids into the wrong LRE, because MSDE is on their backs about it.

Part of that might be because there's a portion of affluent parents who are running to doctors to get disability diagnoses for their kids so they can get special accommodations, such as extra test time, which they think will give their kids an edge in college admissions: https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/private-school-students-get-fake-adhd-diagnoses-boost-sat/

The Post spoke with students, parents, teachers, psychologists and college admissions counselors who confirmed that the system is rife with abuse — which appears to have recently escalated in the wake of Yale and Dartmouth announcing they would start considering standardized test results again after ditching them during the pandemic.

“I get requests for ADHD testing accommodations all the time,” Dr. Camilo Ortiz, a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Long Island University, told The Post.

“Some parents are none too happy when I don’t agree the child has ADHD.”

One mom of a junior at an elite Manhattan prep school said that out of her daughter’s eight closest friends, six have gotten extra time.

“They’re getting really creative with it — it’s ADHD, or anxiety, or depression that leads to migraines that supposedly disrupts the testing,” she told The Post.

“It’s not hyperbolic to say that almost everyone is doing it.”

She added: “Admissions are so cutthroat right now, and she’s absolutely at a disadvantage without having extra time. But I’m self-made, and I’m not teaching my daughter to take any shortcuts in life.”

Christopher Rim, founder and CEO of college counseling firm Command Education, said families are “1,000 percent” manipulating the accommodations for unfair advantages.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

No, Florida doesn't automatically agree to pay for private placement. They have a voucher program that would cover a small fraction of what a high-support special education program costs. And even if it covered everything, there is a shortage of seats in programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

Several decades ago the children you are referring to were not in mainstream school they were in special schools away from their community with only other special needs children to interact with daily. Laws were enacted to change that so that typical kids were not always the primary concern and special needs kids got more of a fair shake. In some cases now this system does not always work perfectly but the families with special needs kids are no longer the ones who always pay the price while the best placement for each child is determined.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it all boils down to there's no where else to put these kids.

Homeschool

+100

Yes, you're free to homeschool your own kids. As long as you're ok screwing them up for life.

Do you really think a violent scissor attack would be better?

Absolutely. But if you prefer to be the one that screws up your kid, then go ahead.

The violent kids are the ones that need homeschool.

You can't force other students/parents to homeschool.

The parents are responsible for the violence and disruption their kids inflict on others. The parents send their kids to school knowing what will happen. Guilty.

They should make the parents attend school with the kids and deal with their behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the parent of such a kid who doesn't minimize violence - the criminality is beside the point. There are no places for these kids to go. It's prison or mainstream. There's private placement if you're very savvy. Most people can't.

I think it's partly optics and partly cost and partly lack of will.

You can’t terrorize the normies. It has to be controlled.

These problems start young an the system tries to gaslight the parents and minimize them. For example, at one point my son didn't get an aide because that would be too restrictive. He was 5 at the time. (He has one now. But first we had to document evidence that he couldn't manage without one.)

It's not reasonable to expect parents to write off a 5 year old because the system doesn't work. The kids get pushed through the system.

That's because it's not legal to start with the most restrictive environment based on the parent's say so. Documenting evidence of the need is part of the process. That's how he ended up with an aide/para.

OK. So how do you suggest I, a parent, should have handled his behavior pre-para?

Hire one yourself. The issue is you want everything free.

I'm not the parent you are responding to but your suggestion is ridiculous. Public schools don't allow parents to hire people to attend school with their children. There is a process by which children are identified as needing services and the school does it's best to provide them. It doesn't often happen on the parent's timetable or the even the teacher's or the parents of the other kids, however it's a process that must be followed. Ideally the school will do their best to manage the child's behavior while they are in the process. Anyone expecting all this to go perfectly is delusional. If you think you can fix this imperfect system go right ahead and run for the school board. In the meantime I believe that everyone involved is doing their best despite what you may think. And BTW the parents of children with special needs typically want the same free public education you want for your children who were lucky enough to not be afflicted with special needs.

Op here. I agree with what you say. But some kids just don't belong in a mainstream school, and how long should the NT kids be affected by actions of one child while the parents are waiting for a better placement? There has to be a better system in place. Upthread a poster mentioned that Florida allows private placement if parents want and state doesn't fight them on it (something about a voucher?) MCPS BOE and MSDE should take note.

Several decades ago the children you are referring to were not in mainstream school they were in special schools away from their community with only other special needs children to interact with daily. Laws were enacted to change that so that typical kids were not always the primary concern and special needs kids got more of a fair shake. In some cases now this system does not always work perfectly but the families with special needs kids are no longer the ones who always pay the price while the best placement for each child is determined.

Many kids, especially mild, don't get what they need from MCPS, including mine. They need to have more specialized programs, including for things like dyslexia, so kids are given the tools they need early on to be successful later.