University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

Then why does she need to inject race? The vast majority of white kids are outside of that structure too. If she had written about certain frats and sororities perpetuating power structures through legacy then she wouldn't be getting that kind of backlash. Of course the paper paying her is run by people benefiting from the new england version of of those power structures, the only difference is that in the north east the cull occurs in an admissions office and in the south east it occurs in a chapter room

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

And the Devine nine don’t segregate? Please, enough with this garbage.

+1
Amazing that actual segregated sororities get a pass from this author (and DCUM’s finest LWNJs), but all other sororities do not. And I’m not a fan of the Greek system in any iteration, but this author is so transparent.

Until white supremacy has been completely dismantled, there will always been a need for affinity groups and safe spaces for marginalized people. I know this bothers white people so much, in the same way you are not allowed to use the N word, while Black people do because a primary tenet of white culture is that no one can tell you what you can't do ever (see 2nd Amendment). White folks built an entire society and systems of exclusion and discrimination that has only been successfully challenged in the past 70 years (for kicks, picking 1954 the year of Brown v Board, though the decision did not lead truly integrated schools...) and now, the organizations that Blacks built to uplift themselves are somehow problematic? This is akin to the big bully wanting the little kid he beat up to be forced to apologize to him too.

the more important point is that there is no black sorority Tik Tok trend.

anyway, I don’t think any white DCUM person who knows any black people in DC fails to understand the role of Jack & Jill, HBCUs, black sororities/frats, or vacations to Oak Bluffs. I’m sure Cottom would have equally interesting things to say about them as elite institutions.

Do you think all the TikTok viewers are watching because they admire these sisters? Seriously? Probably most viewers are hate-watching and laughing. Also, you dodged the question about self-segregation contradicting Cottom's thesis about discrimination.

What is her “thesis about discrimination”? I don’t think you read the article. If your thesis is that white sororities in Alabama is exactly the same thing as say Howard University, I think you’re being willfully obtuse.

In any event her piece has almost as much to do with gender & class as race. Sure it would be interesting if she wrote about Black elite institutions… but they are not a pop cultural phenom at the moment and Cottom is a *cultural critic.*

There's absolutely a white patriarchy in Alabama, and it needs to be dismantled now or yesterday. Fraternities and sororities also probably need to be dismantled.

Going after a handful of white teenagers by mocking their looks and bodies is the wrong way to go about it, though. So yes, I agree with you, that it's about gender. It's about white women, specifically. That's Cottom's beat--she dislikes white women. To the point where she's willing to allude to discrimination (you're right, Cottom has no clear thesis because she has no data to back it up, and pp with the self-segregation is busy undermining Cottom too) as some sort of thin cover for her misogyny.

Nobody ever equated white sororities in Alabama to Howard U. You're the one being obtuse. We all agree there's a history there, and nobody wants to go back to the days of deb balls. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about rushing in 2024.

I don’t see anything in this piece mocking white women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not seeing the mocking described here. I am seeing a straightforward description of the culture/phenomenon that actually leans into the patriarchy too.

me too. and I actually was totally prepared to be pissed off by it. I wasn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does she write about the paper bag test you had to pass to get a bid from AKA (most prestigious black sorority)? Nah, didn’t think so.

well, she’s writing about white sororities in this piece. she actually has written other pieces on white standards of beauty & POC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As someone who was in an SEC sorority, I am rolling my eyes so hard at her suggestion that women only join to meet the right men rather than to be part of a sisterhood. It’s kind of misogynist and gives off “not like the other girls” vibes. Not every girl is there for marriage (in fact, in 2023, I’d guess that most are not, even in the south). And I know not every sorority can say this, but our sisterhood was actually very strong and has been the foundation of many of my social connections with women to this day. I don’t see why it’s surprising or problematic that young women would want that.

I think this is probably one of the few valid critiques here and I would expect that Cottom (who has an intersectional orientation) would not disagree that SEC sororities can serve many functions. I think what specifically triggered this piece is the whole tik tok rush trend which seems sort of regressive in elevating the appearance-based aspects of rushing …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

Then why does she need to inject race? The vast majority of white kids are outside of that structure too. If she had written about certain frats and sororities perpetuating power structures through legacy then she wouldn't be getting that kind of backlash. Of course the paper paying her is run by people benefiting from the new england version of of those power structures, the only difference is that in the north east the cull occurs in an admissions office and in the south east it occurs in a chapter room

she “injects race” because she studies and writes about racism. and her article is also about class - you should read it more closely. and of course she “injects race” because the sororities in question are basically racially segregated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As someone who was in an SEC sorority, I am rolling my eyes so hard at her suggestion that women only join to meet the right men rather than to be part of a sisterhood. It’s kind of misogynist and gives off “not like the other girls” vibes. Not every girl is there for marriage (in fact, in 2023, I’d guess that most are not, even in the south). And I know not every sorority can say this, but our sisterhood was actually very strong and has been the foundation of many of my social connections with women to this day. I don’t see why it’s surprising or problematic that young women would want that.

I think this is probably one of the few valid critiques here and I would expect that Cottom (who has an intersectional orientation) would not disagree that SEC sororities can serve many functions. I think what specifically triggered this piece is the whole tik tok rush trend which seems sort of regressive in elevating the appearance-based aspects of rushing …

Maybe she would, but she spends several paragraphs suggesting that the most important aspect is marrying power, and I wholeheartedly disagree. When these sororities were founded over 100 years ago? Sure. In fact, that's the main reason women even went to college back then. But now, I think that suggestion just comes off as completely tone deaf. It obviously smacks of someone who is an outsider looking in and doesn't really know what they're talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

Then why does she need to inject race? The vast majority of white kids are outside of that structure too. If she had written about certain frats and sororities perpetuating power structures through legacy then she wouldn't be getting that kind of backlash. Of course the paper paying her is run by people benefiting from the new england version of of those power structures, the only difference is that in the north east the cull occurs in an admissions office and in the south east it occurs in a chapter room

she “injects race” because she studies and writes about racism. and her article is also about class - you should read it more closely. and of course she “injects race” because the sororities in question are basically racially segregated.

Basically but not totally. Who do you think has a better chance of becoming a tri delt at Alabama- a black women with professional parents who attended a good private school in the suburbs or a white woman with working class parents who lives in rural Alabama? The exclusion is wholly about class which has a large overlap with race and the author chooses to make race the focal point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not seeing the mocking described here. I am seeing a straightforward description of the culture/phenomenon that actually leans into the patriarchy too.

me too. and I actually was totally prepared to be pissed off by it. I wasn’t.

Did you read the first few paras? You don’t think this is mocking the wannabe sisters? “ There is a lot of hair in these videos — standardized for length and blond in ratios impossible without chemical intervention; it swings exuberantly, signaling good health and traditional femininity. Their robotic dancing to hip-hop songs showcases gymnastic athleticism instead of looser routines made for the club. They keep time, but even the fact that they aren’t clapping on the one and three seems intentional — being cute rather than sexy protects them from the dreaded label “trashy.” Walking that fine line without mussing their hair is part of their popular appeal.”

Or any of OP’s three quotes. These are critical with mocking overtones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

Actually some have written that frat/sorority culture is pretty middle class.

[Anonymous]

Been to college in the south and the north. Frankly the underground fraternities at Harvard and Yale are slightly more horrendous because they are unregulated and their parents have unlimited power. Signs with ‘No means yes, yes means anal’ haikus were common. similarly the off campus ones in the south were the most dangerous. If anything the sororities did a better job of protecting their members from the predation of the frats than the unattached and off campus girls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

Then why does she need to inject race? The vast majority of white kids are outside of that structure too. If she had written about certain frats and sororities perpetuating power structures through legacy then she wouldn't be getting that kind of backlash. Of course the paper paying her is run by people benefiting from the new england version of of those power structures, the only difference is that in the north east the cull occurs in an admissions office and in the south east it occurs in a chapter room

she “injects race” because she studies and writes about racism. and her article is also about class - you should read it more closely. and of course she “injects race” because the sororities in question are basically racially segregated.

We know all that. The unanswered questions are why? and what does it mean?

Instead of saying why (discrimination? Self-segregation? Any actual data?), Cottom jumps straight to mocking hair and makeup and to making unsubstantiated conclusions like this one: “In the case of “integrating” Bama Rush, no one is talking about the radical roots of integration. They don’t even mean integration as an accommodationist principle. They mean the neoliberal branding of integration as cosmetic diversity. That would look like adding a few plus-size bodies, a racially ambiguous but nonwhite young woman, and some dark hair here and there and calling that fixing Bama Rush for our new sensibilities.”

That’s why she’s getting criticized.

[Anonymous]

America is so diverse — is there any other country that has institutions as different as sec vs nescac?

It’s like these two aren’t even the same species

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We'd all share Cottom's outrage if she provided any evidence that this tiny number of teenagers are a lynchpin of white southern power in a way that isn't available to black teenagers. But Cottom doesn't even try to provide evidence of discrimination in the rush process. She also doesn't try to link these few hundred wannabe housewives (or are they part of the power machine, she can't seem to decide) to a controlling interest in southern society. Cottom only alludes darkly to white power structures and hopes we'll all agree.

Instead, Cottom focusses her anger on the fact that many of these few hundred teenagers are thin, white bottle blonds. Look, it's way past time to broaden our standards of beauty to include more colors and shapes. The bottle blond look isn't available to black women, but black sororities have their own beauty and behavior standards, make no mistake. Cottom mocking and excoriating white women for, basically, being white is another kettle of fish, and it's not camouflaged by the thin veneer of her unproven claim that these few hundred teenagers will allegedly go on to control southern white society.

+1000
Still waiting on her critique of black sororities and all of their vapid rituals, fashion, and dance moves.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:You have to pay to read it No thanks

This is dcum, the majority of people here sub to NYT

Dallas urban moms is that way ➡️

DP. Not me. I subscribe to the WSJ after ditching the WaPo.

Make sure you only read the opinion section.

LOL. Yes, the paper pilloried by journalists working in the straight news section for their bathsh-t crazy editorial section since the buyout.

DP. Anyone calling the WSJ editorial section “batshit crazy” is outing themselves as a complete LWNJ.

Nice try. Anyone arguing against that obvious assessment — agreed with by the overwhelming majority of the WSJ news staff and widely publicized in their very public criticism of the revamped editorial department after the Murdoch takeover — is a propagandist fighting a losing battle.

Also, anyone who would defend the media empire that employed and promoted noted white supremacist Tucker “White men don’t fight like that” Carlson is obviously not a serious person.

Don’t you have a MAGA rally to attend?