University of Alabama - “ peak neo-antebellum white Southern culture” - NYT

[Anonymous]

However, guess it doesn’t count *

[Anonymous]

"Puritanism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be having a good time." -- HL Mencken

Applies to the NYT and many DCUM readers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

And the Devine nine don’t segregate? Please, enough with this garbage.

+1
Amazing that actual segregated sororities get a pass from this author (and DCUM’s finest LWNJs), but all other sororities do not. And I’m not a fan of the Greek system in any iteration, but this author is so transparent.

Until white supremacy has been completely dismantled, there will always been a need for affinity groups and safe spaces for marginalized people. I know this bothers white people so much, in the same way you are not allowed to use the N word, while Black people do because a primary tenet of white culture is that no one can tell you what you can't do ever (see 2nd Amendment). White folks built an entire society and systems of exclusion and discrimination that has only been successfully challenged in the past 70 years (for kicks, picking 1954 the year of Brown v Board, though the decision did not lead truly integrated schools...) and now, the organizations that Blacks built to uplift themselves are somehow problematic? This is akin to the big bully wanting the little kid he beat up to be forced to apologize to him too.

the more important point is that there is no black sorority Tik Tok trend.

anyway, I don’t think any white DCUM person who knows any black people in DC fails to understand the role of Jack & Jill, HBCUs, black sororities/frats, or vacations to Oak Bluffs. I’m sure Cottom would have equally interesting things to say about them as elite institutions.

Do you think all the TikTok viewers are watching because they admire these sisters? Seriously? Probably most viewers are hate-watching and laughing. Also, you dodged the question about self-segregation contradicting Cottom's thesis about discrimination.

What is her “thesis about discrimination”? I don’t think you read the article. If your thesis is that white sororities in Alabama is exactly the same thing as say Howard University, I think you’re being willfully obtuse.

In any event her piece has almost as much to do with gender & class as race. Sure it would be interesting if she wrote about Black elite institutions… but they are not a pop cultural phenom at the moment and Cottom is a *cultural critic.*

There's absolutely a white patriarchy in Alabama, and it needs to be dismantled now or yesterday. Fraternities and sororities also probably need to be dismantled.

Going after a handful of white teenagers by mocking their looks and bodies is the wrong way to go about it, though. So yes, I agree with you, that it's about gender. It's about white women, specifically. That's Cottom's beat--she dislikes white women. To the point where she's willing to allude to discrimination (you're right, Cottom has no clear thesis because she has no data to back it up, and pp with the self-segregation is busy undermining Cottom too) as some sort of thin cover for her misogyny.

Nobody ever equated white sororities in Alabama to Howard U. You're the one being obtuse. We all agree there's a history there, and nobody wants to go back to the days of deb balls. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about rushing in 2024.

Hopefully that leads to the NYT and UNC parting ways with her. If this same article was written about the appearance of black women, she would have already written her apology and been fired, but it's ok to attack white women based on appearance.

"It's impossible for Black people to be racist, because racism only counts when the race in power does it."

Attacking white people is her job. She I has the highest academic rank in attacking white people. That's why they hired her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"big mad"? Are you 12, OP?

I like “bid mad”..I am going to use it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not seeing the mocking described here. I am seeing a straightforward description of the culture/phenomenon that actually leans into the patriarchy too.

I’m seeing mocking. And Karenning. You must have read a different article.

[Anonymous]

What a disappointing piece. This writer could have spent her time being productive. Instead she espouses the "evils" of being white. It is sickening and makes me want to throw up. I don't understand today's mindset of having to put other people down because of their race. It's a bad look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/opinion/bama-rush-tiktok-race.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Angry woman from NYT big mad that Bama girls are hot and also big mad that outsiders think the Bama girls are hot also.

“ Their Southern accents are the linguistic equivalent of pointing a ring light at their shiny hair and tasteful makeup. ”

“ that accent is seductive. It says these are ideal women from a regional culture that values traditional gender norms ”

“ these sororities’ annual viral juggernaut is counterprogramming to the Northeastern elite university brand. The Bama version is wholesome, nonthreatening, traditional femininity in Lululemon athleisure. ”

The whole article is a must read

No thoughts on the history of segregation and Greek life? On the role of the Machine? You're missing the point if you think this piece and other critiques of the system are directed at the "shiny hair and tasteful makeup."

And the Devine nine don’t segregate? Please, enough with this garbage.

+1
Amazing that actual segregated sororities get a pass from this author (and DCUM’s finest LWNJs), but all other sororities do not. And I’m not a fan of the Greek system in any iteration, but this author is so transparent.

Until white supremacy has been completely dismantled, there will always been a need for affinity groups and safe spaces for marginalized people. I know this bothers white people so much, in the same way you are not allowed to use the N word, while Black people do because a primary tenet of white culture is that no one can tell you what you can't do ever (see 2nd Amendment). White folks built an entire society and systems of exclusion and discrimination that has only been successfully challenged in the past 70 years (for kicks, picking 1954 the year of Brown v Board, though the decision did not lead truly integrated schools...) and now, the organizations that Blacks built to uplift themselves are somehow problematic? This is akin to the big bully wanting the little kid he beat up to be forced to apologize to him too.

the more important point is that there is no black sorority Tik Tok trend.

anyway, I don’t think any white DCUM person who knows any black people in DC fails to understand the role of Jack & Jill, HBCUs, black sororities/frats, or vacations to Oak Bluffs. I’m sure Cottom would have equally interesting things to say about them as elite institutions.

Do you think all the TikTok viewers are watching because they admire these sisters? Seriously? Probably most viewers are hate-watching and laughing. Also, you dodged the question about self-segregation contradicting Cottom's thesis about discrimination.

What is her “thesis about discrimination”? I don’t think you read the article. If your thesis is that white sororities in Alabama is exactly the same thing as say Howard University, I think you’re being willfully obtuse.

In any event her piece has almost as much to do with gender & class as race. Sure it would be interesting if she wrote about Black elite institutions… but they are not a pop cultural phenom at the moment and Cottom is a *cultural critic.*

There's absolutely a white patriarchy in Alabama, and it needs to be dismantled now or yesterday. Fraternities and sororities also probably need to be dismantled.

Going after a handful of white teenagers by mocking their looks and bodies is the wrong way to go about it, though. So yes, I agree with you, that it's about gender. It's about white women, specifically. That's Cottom's beat--she dislikes white women. To the point where she's willing to allude to discrimination (you're right, Cottom has no clear thesis because she has no data to back it up, and pp with the self-segregation is busy undermining Cottom too) as some sort of thin cover for her misogyny.

Nobody ever equated white sororities in Alabama to Howard U. You're the one being obtuse. We all agree there's a history there, and nobody wants to go back to the days of deb balls. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about rushing in 2024.

Hopefully that leads to the NYT and UNC parting ways with her. If this same article was written about the appearance of black women, she would have already written her apology and been fired, but it's ok to attack white women based on appearance.

Well said.

[Anonymous]

Does she write about the paper bag test you had to pass to get a bid from AKA (most prestigious black sorority)? Nah, didn’t think so.

[Anonymous]

As someone who was in an SEC sorority, I am rolling my eyes so hard at her suggestion that women only join to meet the right men rather than to be part of a sisterhood. It’s kind of misogynist and gives off “not like the other girls” vibes. Not every girl is there for marriage (in fact, in 2023, I’d guess that most are not, even in the south). And I know not every sorority can say this, but our sisterhood was actually very strong and has been the foundation of many of my social connections with women to this day. I don’t see why it’s surprising or problematic that young women would want that.

[Anonymous]

This whole thread makes me want to watch Bama Rush on HBO/MAX.

[Anonymous]

I’d be grateful if somebody could explain how these 200 wanna-be housewives are perpetuating the white patriarchy in 2023. Without referring to deb balls in the 1950s or making vague references to power structures.

What, precisely, are these few hundred white women in Lululemon contributing to the white power structure?

Is there actual discrimination at these sororities? Certainly blond hair isn’t available to Blacks. But according to pp, blacks don’t want to join anyway, instead they want to join their own sororities/affinity groups. Are there any studies of discrimination today?

Is there a way these young white girls will grow up to support their white men, in a way that non-sorority sisters can’t?

Otherwise it just looks like more Karenning, with some body shaming thrown in for good measure. I mean, I know there’s a white patriarchy. I just don’t see how a small handful of young white women feed into it.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We'd all share Cottom's outrage if she provided any evidence that this tiny number of teenagers are a lynchpin of white southern power in a way that isn't available to black teenagers. But Cottom doesn't even try to provide evidence of discrimination in the rush process. She also doesn't try to link these few hundred wannabe housewives (or are they part of the power machine, she can't seem to decide) to a controlling interest in southern society. Cottom only alludes darkly to white power structures and hopes we'll all agree.

Instead, Cottom focusses her anger on the fact that many of these few hundred teenagers are thin, white bottle blonds. Look, it's way past time to broaden our standards of beauty to include more colors and shapes. The bottle blond look isn't available to black women, but black sororities have their own beauty and behavior standards, make no mistake. Cottom mocking and excoriating white women for, basically, being white is another kettle of fish, and it's not camouflaged by the thin veneer of her unproven claim that these few hundred teenagers will allegedly go on to control southern white society.

I just posted a snarky response agreeing with you before I actually read the article. Cottom is a cultural critic - so as much as David Brooks can write about a sandwich as representing something (a sandwich that I actually just ate btw) Cottom can write about Bama Rush (and she does in a better and more informed way). She’s also commenting on Bama Rush as a new pop culture phenomenon via Tik Toks. As far as race goes she observes the lack of diversity but has very interesting things to say about how to interpret that. Anyways Cottom does in other of her pieces/interviews indulge in dime-store reliance on the reified concept of “whiteness” which I really dislike but she doesn’t do it here. She has a much broader range examining economics, gender, class, & pop culture. I’m glad to see her on the pages of the NYT.

You can think that both Brooks and Cottom are idiots, and I do. I'm no fan of the greeks, but if Cottom were really making a point about the greek system in general, I'd have more respect for her if she took down black frats too. She asserts various things about diversity and discrimination in the sororities, but she doesn't provide any evidence (at least Brooks occasionally serves up a fact, but he's still an idiot). Cottom's piece basically slams a pretty much irrelevant group of white women for doing white things. This doesn't advance racial awareness, instead it just drives more readers into the arms of Trump and his ilk.

Evidence? Have you ever been through rush? Or seen the number of POC who pledge sororities and frats? The evidence is right before your eyes.
(I was in a sorority).

[Anonymous]

These women can do whatever they want. But, rushing/Greek is so different now from when I went through it a million years ago. I had fun but sort of recognized it for what it was and didn't take it too serious. These ladies are a whole new level . . . it doesn't really affect me. But, I do sort of look at them like I would a space alien. Or a horrible reality show.

[Anonymous]

The top fraternities and sororities (the machine-adjacent ones for example called "Old Row") by and large only take members who come from the power structure that already exists and has existed for 150 years - leaders in politics and business and law. And it perpetuates that power and hands it down to the next generations. This phenomenon is not unique to the southern greek scene.

Black Americans were not in that power structure to begin with so it is fairly impossible for them to step into it (again, like other circles of influence around the country) and become a part of it through the traditional greek system, and Cottom is arguing that we should resist the urge to want to 'diversify' it anyway because it is a messed up system in the first place.

A surface level reading of the piece would make one thing she is trashing the rushees and members but that is not what I read.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If I thought something was wrong with aspiring to fit in, attract a partner, gain friends, look good, be fit, get attention, or gain networking opportunities in the future, I’d see a problem here. I do think there’s not much diversity, but I think that’s more of people self-selecting out of that culture than anything else.

-Was not in a sorority

This entire thread is so tone-deaf. Take this one: of course there is nothing wrong with trying to fit in, make friends, find a partner, etc. but there IS a problem when this is something reserved for young white women from wealthy families. Considering how much power the Greek system has at places like the University of Alabama, Bama Rush is just another way to uphold the social and racial hierarchy.

I suspect the DCUMers in this thread are so oblivious to Bama Rush's more sinister undertones because deep down you see your daughters (or yourselves) in these girls and their aspirations for social capital.

How about YOUR tone-deaf attitude that the biggest problem in higher education is the Greek system, apparently, instead of the fact that the colleges themselves disproportionally admit and enroll white students vs. students of color? Address the real issues, please. Students are going to be social. This is an opt-in opportunity, not a required class or something.