What’s with people getting angry that kids are in carseats longer?

[Anonymous]

I remind my ILs that the cars themselves have changed. The seat belts now literally work differently than the seatbelts did in the ‘80s - no point in a booster with a lap belt for one example. I think it helps cut down on the defensiveness when the message is “this is what’s necessary in a 21st century car” vs an implied “you did not do enough to keep your own kids safe” which I think is what grandparents sometimes hear even though it’s not what we are trying to imply at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a question. My family is all small. I’m barely 5’0 and was probably closer to 4’10 when I started driving (I had to sit on a pillow to see over the wheel). Should I have been driving in a booster seat? Should I keep my kid (who likely will be that small) in a booster seat until college? When does the madness stop?

(DD is currently 7 and still in a harnessed seat because she’s under 50 pounds, but it has been a question I’ve been asking myself a lot lately).

DP. My mom is 5 foot even and does sit on a booster cushion in some older cars that don’t have a drivers seat with adjustable height. Should she not because it’s beneath her dignity?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here’s a question. My family is all small. I’m barely 5’0 and was probably closer to 4’10 when I started driving (I had to sit on a pillow to see over the wheel). Should I have been driving in a booster seat? Should I keep my kid (who likely will be that small) in a booster seat until college? When does the madness stop?

(DD is currently 7 and still in a harnessed seat because she’s under 50 pounds, but it has been a question I’ve been asking myself a lot lately).

DP. My mom is 5 foot even and does sit on a booster cushion in some older cars that don’t have a drivers seat with adjustable height. Should she not because it’s beneath her dignity?

It's hard to imagine that's safer. If her seat is not adjustable, sitting higher is just going to make it harder for her to reach the pedals. Does she have pedal extenders as well? How often is she driving multiple older cars? My mom is under 5 ft and has never needed a cushion due to adjustable seats. Because her legs are so short she sits super close to the steering wheel, a few inches away. I'm not sure how effecting an air bag will be for someone like her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

There are lots of ways to get a free booster seat. This link is for DC, but every state in the US has programs like this: https://ddot.dc.gov/page/car-safety-seat-program

Going through the program is more work than buying it yourself. The forties mom has a very valid point.

Lots of programs are easy though. I mentioned upthread that my local firehouse runs a program where they distribute car seats and boosters twice a year to families who need them. They purchase inexpensive (but safety compliant) seats from a local distributor who gives them a discount, and families don’t need to income qualify or apply— they just sign up and then show up for distribution. Some percent are reserved for families who are sent to the program through a local DV shelter, but the rest are available to anyone who needs one. No hoops, and the guys at the station install the seats on site and show people how to use them correctly.

Umm the hoop is being there at one of the two times per year. Planning that you will get there before your kid needs the seat. You don't understand how chaotic life can be when you are working multiple jobs with evening and weekend hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

Infant seats and convertible seats can be expensive (though there are inexpensive options out there that meet all safety standards) but boosters, even high back harnessed boosters, can be much more affordable. I think ours cost like $60? You can get a backless booster for like $15. I’m sure as with anything, there are super high end versions of these that will cost a lot more, but the cheap ones, again, meet all safety standards and will significantly reduce risk of death or injury for a child in a car accident versus just a seat belt that is incorrectly positioned because of their size.

There are also many programs to provide free car seats and boosters to people who can’t afford them— our local fire house runs such a program and we donate to it every year.

While some people might use car seat standards to punish and harass poor people, I really do not think that is the goal behind the standards and recommendations. Those are driven by the fact that advocacy groups don’t want to see kids die in car accidents. Any kids.

Np. Small businesses Pp is right. This is another excessive burden on poor parents. $60 is a lot of money to a poor family. Also three car seats can’t fit in many small cars so you are effectively limiting the number of kids a poor person can have. And the expirations are an industry racket.

Yes car crashes are the number one way kids die. But its also still thankfully very rare, and most of those cases involve kids not even in seat belts and/or drunk driving caregivers. When we go to these zero sum extremes is when I believe we carry things too far and end up hurting families more than helping them.

Frankly I’d love to see more of that social investment/enforcement spent on public safety and ensuring safe walkable routes for kids and families and slowing cars down so that walkability is more feasible and kids spend less time in cars overall. Then we deal with both the obesity epidemic and car safety.

Have you not read the posts that on access to free car seats?

Also, from a practicality standpoint, if you are poor and own a car, I’m actually okay with car seat rules making it infeasible to have more kids. If that sounds harsh, fine. But as someone who grew up in a working class family with four kids they could not afford, and whose parents regularly skimped on safety or health because they couldn’t afford it, I don’t view that as a negative.

Lol of course you are. Wow the classism here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

There are lots of ways to get a free booster seat. This link is for DC, but every state in the US has programs like this: https://ddot.dc.gov/page/car-safety-seat-program

Going through the program is more work than buying it yourself. The forties mom has a very valid point.

Lots of programs are easy though. I mentioned upthread that my local firehouse runs a program where they distribute car seats and boosters twice a year to families who need them. They purchase inexpensive (but safety compliant) seats from a local distributor who gives them a discount, and families don’t need to income qualify or apply— they just sign up and then show up for distribution. Some percent are reserved for families who are sent to the program through a local DV shelter, but the rest are available to anyone who needs one. No hoops, and the guys at the station install the seats on site and show people how to use them correctly.

Umm the hoop is being there at one of the two times per year. Planning that you will get there before your kid needs the seat. You don't understand how chaotic life can be when you are working multiple jobs with evening and weekend hours.

??? Where do live where you can only get a free car seat 2 times a year???!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think your single anecdote is not representing the entire population. Most people really don't care what type of seat your kid sits in as long as you don't lecture them about it.

Fwiw my 8 year old is tall enough to sit with feet touching the ground and seat belt fitting properly in one of our cars. So he does. In the other thr seats are higher I guess and he uses a backless booster. I just mention it because its not a one size fits all rule. Kids are different and cars are different and I guess parents perception of risk is different too. And that's all fine. Just do the best you can with your kids and don't worry about others.

DING DING DING DING

OP seems like the sanctimonious type (she can protest that she's not, but come on, you can read her post). So I bet that's the reaction your getting from people. You come across as thinking that anyone who does things differently from you is doing them wrong, and that's annoying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

There are lots of ways to get a free booster seat. This link is for DC, but every state in the US has programs like this: https://ddot.dc.gov/page/car-safety-seat-program

Going through the program is more work than buying it yourself. The forties mom has a very valid point.

Lots of programs are easy though. I mentioned upthread that my local firehouse runs a program where they distribute car seats and boosters twice a year to families who need them. They purchase inexpensive (but safety compliant) seats from a local distributor who gives them a discount, and families don’t need to income qualify or apply— they just sign up and then show up for distribution. Some percent are reserved for families who are sent to the program through a local DV shelter, but the rest are available to anyone who needs one. No hoops, and the guys at the station install the seats on site and show people how to use them correctly.

Umm the hoop is being there at one of the two times per year. Planning that you will get there before your kid needs the seat. You don't understand how chaotic life can be when you are working multiple jobs with evening and weekend hours.

The fire department near us always announces that you can come by or make an appointment (some evenings and weekends) and they will have someone who is trained in installing sestbelts to help you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids RF til 4 and didn’t sit in a backless booster til age 8. So I think most would say I’m pretty strict about car seat safety. But I don’t feel the need to defend/justify my choice or preach about it to others. I don’t discuss it w people unless they ask. And my dad and FIL would not even know and have never asked. I have to think you’re the type to be preachy about your decisions, especially parenting decisions for your people to react by groaning and giving you a hard time.

How does this even come up in conversation? You said it doesn’t bother your kids so I doubt they talk about it.

They never see the children in the car? Ever?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28427953/

Even setting aside the significant methodology problems with this study, this finding should calm everyone’s nerves about (the lack of) booster seat use:

“The risk of experiencing an incapacitating/fatal injury was not associated with booster use.”

So all the other injuries don’t matter, only paralysis or death. Gotcha.

So, based on parent interviews, booster seats appear to provide a small benefit against minor injuries, while more objective data show no benefit against severe injuries.

Simply put, when combined, that shows booster seats have a pretty small benefit.

So you didn’t read it. The study was not based on parent interviews. It’s based on data collected from officers responding to crashes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have yet to see an 11 year old in a high back booster. Good luck with that.

I didn’t say my 11-year-old will be in a backed booster. I said my 7-year-old is and both my kids will be in boosters until they are at the correct age/height for the seatbelt to not hit them across the neck. I’m sure in the next few years my youngest will get the backed booster and my oldest will graduate to the regular CostCo booster.

I’m 50 and I barely clear the seatbelt

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

Infant seats and convertible seats can be expensive (though there are inexpensive options out there that meet all safety standards) but boosters, even high back harnessed boosters, can be much more affordable. I think ours cost like $60? You can get a backless booster for like $15. I’m sure as with anything, there are super high end versions of these that will cost a lot more, but the cheap ones, again, meet all safety standards and will significantly reduce risk of death or injury for a child in a car accident versus just a seat belt that is incorrectly positioned because of their size.

There are also many programs to provide free car seats and boosters to people who can’t afford them— our local fire house runs such a program and we donate to it every year.

While some people might use car seat standards to punish and harass poor people, I really do not think that is the goal behind the standards and recommendations. Those are driven by the fact that advocacy groups don’t want to see kids die in car accidents. Any kids.

Np. Small businesses Pp is right. This is another excessive burden on poor parents. $60 is a lot of money to a poor family. Also three car seats can’t fit in many small cars so you are effectively limiting the number of kids a poor person can have. And the expirations are an industry racket.

Yes car crashes are the number one way kids die. But its also still thankfully very rare, and most of those cases involve kids not even in seat belts and/or drunk driving caregivers. When we go to these zero sum extremes is when I believe we carry things too far and end up hurting families more than helping them.

Frankly I’d love to see more of that social investment/enforcement spent on public safety and ensuring safe walkable routes for kids and families and slowing cars down so that walkability is more feasible and kids spend less time in cars overall. Then we deal with both the obesity epidemic and car safety.

Have you not read the posts that on access to free car seats?

Also, from a practicality standpoint, if you are poor and own a car, I’m actually okay with car seat rules making it infeasible to have more kids. If that sounds harsh, fine. But as someone who grew up in a working class family with four kids they could not afford, and whose parents regularly skimped on safety or health because they couldn’t afford it, I don’t view that as a negative.

Lol of course you are. Wow the classism here

The privilege and the sanctimony, I swear.

It’s not the car seat. It’s the car needed to accommodate more than 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

Infant seats and convertible seats can be expensive (though there are inexpensive options out there that meet all safety standards) but boosters, even high back harnessed boosters, can be much more affordable. I think ours cost like $60? You can get a backless booster for like $15. I’m sure as with anything, there are super high end versions of these that will cost a lot more, but the cheap ones, again, meet all safety standards and will significantly reduce risk of death or injury for a child in a car accident versus just a seat belt that is incorrectly positioned because of their size.

There are also many programs to provide free car seats and boosters to people who can’t afford them— our local fire house runs such a program and we donate to it every year.

While some people might use car seat standards to punish and harass poor people, I really do not think that is the goal behind the standards and recommendations. Those are driven by the fact that advocacy groups don’t want to see kids die in car accidents. Any kids.

Np. Small businesses Pp is right. This is another excessive burden on poor parents. $60 is a lot of money to a poor family. Also three car seats can’t fit in many small cars so you are effectively limiting the number of kids a poor person can have. And the expirations are an industry racket.

Yes car crashes are the number one way kids die. But its also still thankfully very rare, and most of those cases involve kids not even in seat belts and/or drunk driving caregivers. When we go to these zero sum extremes is when I believe we carry things too far and end up hurting families more than helping them.

Frankly I’d love to see more of that social investment/enforcement spent on public safety and ensuring safe walkable routes for kids and families and slowing cars down so that walkability is more feasible and kids spend less time in cars overall. Then we deal with both the obesity epidemic and car safety.

Have you not read the posts that on access to free car seats?

Also, from a practicality standpoint, if you are poor and own a car, I’m actually okay with car seat rules making it infeasible to have more kids. If that sounds harsh, fine. But as someone who grew up in a working class family with four kids they could not afford, and whose parents regularly skimped on safety or health because they couldn’t afford it, I don’t view that as a negative.

Lol of course you are. Wow the classism here

The privilege and the sanctimony, I swear.

It’s not the car seat. It’s the car needed to accommodate more than 2.

So we should relax car seat regulations to make sure that if someone wants to have more than 2 kids under age 6, they can do so without having to worry about how they'll fit in the Camry? What?

It's not classist to suggest that rules should be based on actual safety concerns, and not on accommodating an unsafe choice that some families want to make.

Truthfully, if a family wants a third kid and can't afford a larger car, they just move the oldest out of a car seat early, rules be damned. This stuff doesn't get enforced unless you are involved in an accident and then you'll get slapped with a reckless endangerment charge. It doesn't actually matter what I think of the choice -- people mostly just do what they want anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m a mom in my late 40s, and my kids were in car seats/boosters longer than their peers. But i do wonder from a pure public policy perspective if all this long term boostering makes sense. The reality is that car seats and boosters aren’t cheap and they seem to be used as a litmus test to show that poor people/people of color are “bad” parents that in some cases are BREAKING THE LAW. I also wonder how much there is a quiet car seat lobby driving all this.

I totally believe all the numbers about safety, but there are lots of things that would be safer that don’t get enacted into laws that are then used to tax poor people essentially who cannot afford them. But I also own my own business and have to run background checks on people that are hourly wage people. The amount of non-moving violations that are used against poor people because they cannot afford to get a headlight fixed, fix a seatbelt, etc, then they cannot pay the fine and then they get arrested when the cannot pay fines is just unbelievable.

Infant seats and convertible seats can be expensive (though there are inexpensive options out there that meet all safety standards) but boosters, even high back harnessed boosters, can be much more affordable. I think ours cost like $60? You can get a backless booster for like $15. I’m sure as with anything, there are super high end versions of these that will cost a lot more, but the cheap ones, again, meet all safety standards and will significantly reduce risk of death or injury for a child in a car accident versus just a seat belt that is incorrectly positioned because of their size.

There are also many programs to provide free car seats and boosters to people who can’t afford them— our local fire house runs such a program and we donate to it every year.

While some people might use car seat standards to punish and harass poor people, I really do not think that is the goal behind the standards and recommendations. Those are driven by the fact that advocacy groups don’t want to see kids die in car accidents. Any kids.

Np. Small businesses Pp is right. This is another excessive burden on poor parents. $60 is a lot of money to a poor family. Also three car seats can’t fit in many small cars so you are effectively limiting the number of kids a poor person can have. And the expirations are an industry racket.

Yes car crashes are the number one way kids die. But its also still thankfully very rare, and most of those cases involve kids not even in seat belts and/or drunk driving caregivers. When we go to these zero sum extremes is when I believe we carry things too far and end up hurting families more than helping them.

Frankly I’d love to see more of that social investment/enforcement spent on public safety and ensuring safe walkable routes for kids and families and slowing cars down so that walkability is more feasible and kids spend less time in cars overall. Then we deal with both the obesity epidemic and car safety.

Have you not read the posts that on access to free car seats?

Also, from a practicality standpoint, if you are poor and own a car, I’m actually okay with car seat rules making it infeasible to have more kids. If that sounds harsh, fine. But as someone who grew up in a working class family with four kids they could not afford, and whose parents regularly skimped on safety or health because they couldn’t afford it, I don’t view that as a negative.

Lol of course you are. Wow the classism here

The privilege and the sanctimony, I swear.

It’s not the car seat. It’s the car needed to accommodate more than 2.

So we should relax car seat regulations to make sure that if someone wants to have more than 2 kids under age 6, they can do so without having to worry about how they'll fit in the Camry? What?

It's not classist to suggest that rules should be based on actual safety concerns, and not on accommodating an unsafe choice that some families want to make.

Truthfully, if a family wants a third kid and can't afford a larger car, they just move the oldest out of a car seat early, rules be damned. This stuff doesn't get enforced unless you are involved in an accident and then you'll get slapped with a reckless endangerment charge. It doesn't actually matter what I think of the choice -- people mostly just do what they want anyway.

I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I think the idea of rear facing a 4 year old or harnessing a petite 6 year old is OTT.

https://www.cdc.gov/transportationsafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

How many millions of kids ride in cars a day? All that social media shaming and scare mongering videos for less than 100 child deaths in 2020?

This topic really gets to me. It’s also just one of many issues that gets this kind of treatment on social media.

For example, the debate over swaddling after eight weeks. I remember just getting my daughter to sleep in a swaddle when she was eight weeks and then stumbling on a Facebook post about why you have to quit swaddling at eight weeks. I completely spiraled.

The safest option isn’t always the sanest.

[Anonymous]

1000 deaths