Church attendance continues to plummet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Globally, Muslims have the highest fertility rate, an average of 3.1 children per woman – well above replacement level (2.1), the minimum typically needed to maintain a stable population.6 Christians are second, at 2.7 children per woman. Hindu fertility (2.4) is similar to the global average (2.5). Worldwide, Jewish fertility (2.3 children per woman) also is above replacement level. All the other groups have fertility levels too low to sustain their populations: folk religions (1.8 children per woman), other religions (1.7), the unaffiliated (1.7) and Buddhists (1.6).

Another important determinant of growth is the current age distribution of each religious group – whether its adherents are predominantly young, with their prime childbearing years still ahead, or older and largely past their childbearing years.

In 2010, more than a quarter of the world’s total population (27%) was under the age of 15. But an even higher percentage of Muslims (34%) and Hindus (30%) were younger than 15, while the share of Christians under 15 matched the global average (27%). These bulging youth populations are among the reasons that Muslims are projected to grow faster than the world’s overall population and that Hindus and Christians are projected to roughly keep pace with worldwide population growth.

All the remaining groups have smaller-than-average youth populations, and many of them have disproportionately large numbers of adherents over the age of 59. For example, 11% of the world’s population was at least 60 years old in 2010. But fully 20% of Jews around the world are 60 or older, as are 15% of Buddhists, 14% of Christians, 14% of adherents of other religions (taken as a whole), 13% of the unaffiliated and 11% of adherents of folk religions. By contrast, just 7% of Muslims and 8% of Hindus are in this oldest age category.

Demographics are destiny.

Demographics change, as well. Industrialization is destiny, too. And climate change and earthquakes. The railroads and electrification had a huge effect on humanity. And nuclear weapons. Now we have electronics and the internet and robotics and who knows what!

According to various scholars and sources Pentecostalism – a Protestant Christian movement – is the fastest growing religion in the world, this growth is primarily due to religious conversion. According to Pulitzer Center 35,000 people become Pentecostal or "Born again" every day.

Pentecostalism: Massive Global Growth Under the Radar

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/pentecostalism-massive-global-growth-under-radar

While the Pentecostal movement's growth has been enormous, it has been taking place over several decades and in relative silence. With new members being baptized every three seconds its steady expansion has become normality, taking place in the background unnoticed by the daily news cycle.

Even though Pentecostalism is a global phenomenon, it has no central authority and presents itself in a wide variety—from the mega-churches that seat 100,000 people in Lagos, Nigeria to the informal office suites in European cities and the baroque cathedrals of the Philippines. However, in all these different environments Pentecostalism borrows methods from the corporate world, such as the use of the latest in communication technologies, massive video walls, satellite and internet broadcasting, and the promise of self fulfillment though advertising and self-help books. Local churches often compete with one another and set themselves apart through their corporate identities, logos and uniforms.

Kids being raised Pentecostal will likely drop the religion as adults. Too extreme.

Do you have a link or source that backs that up? Or is that just your opinion?

my opinion

Although this 2019 research done by a Christian organization shows college students are leaving the church:

https://research.lifeway.com/2019/01/15/most-teenagers-drop-out-of-church-as-young-adults/

Among those who attended a Protestant church as teenager, 7 in 10 say they’re Protestant now. Another 10 percent identify as Catholic. Few say they are agnostic (4 percent) or atheist (3 percent).

“While some young adults who leave church are rejecting their childhood faith, most are choosing to keep many of the beliefs they had, but with a smaller dose of church,” said McConnell.

^from your link

not regularly attending church does not equal leaving the church, especially since in this study they still consider themselves religious (7 out of 10) and only about 3% say they are atheist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Globally, Muslims have the highest fertility rate, an average of 3.1 children per woman – well above replacement level (2.1), the minimum typically needed to maintain a stable population.6 Christians are second, at 2.7 children per woman. Hindu fertility (2.4) is similar to the global average (2.5). Worldwide, Jewish fertility (2.3 children per woman) also is above replacement level. All the other groups have fertility levels too low to sustain their populations: folk religions (1.8 children per woman), other religions (1.7), the unaffiliated (1.7) and Buddhists (1.6).

Another important determinant of growth is the current age distribution of each religious group – whether its adherents are predominantly young, with their prime childbearing years still ahead, or older and largely past their childbearing years.

In 2010, more than a quarter of the world’s total population (27%) was under the age of 15. But an even higher percentage of Muslims (34%) and Hindus (30%) were younger than 15, while the share of Christians under 15 matched the global average (27%). These bulging youth populations are among the reasons that Muslims are projected to grow faster than the world’s overall population and that Hindus and Christians are projected to roughly keep pace with worldwide population growth.

All the remaining groups have smaller-than-average youth populations, and many of them have disproportionately large numbers of adherents over the age of 59. For example, 11% of the world’s population was at least 60 years old in 2010. But fully 20% of Jews around the world are 60 or older, as are 15% of Buddhists, 14% of Christians, 14% of adherents of other religions (taken as a whole), 13% of the unaffiliated and 11% of adherents of folk religions. By contrast, just 7% of Muslims and 8% of Hindus are in this oldest age category.

Demographics are destiny.

Demographics change, as well. Industrialization is destiny, too. And climate change and earthquakes. The railroads and electrification had a huge effect on humanity. And nuclear weapons. Now we have electronics and the internet and robotics and who knows what!

According to various scholars and sources Pentecostalism – a Protestant Christian movement – is the fastest growing religion in the world, this growth is primarily due to religious conversion. According to Pulitzer Center 35,000 people become Pentecostal or "Born again" every day.

Pentecostalism: Massive Global Growth Under the Radar

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/pentecostalism-massive-global-growth-under-radar

While the Pentecostal movement's growth has been enormous, it has been taking place over several decades and in relative silence. With new members being baptized every three seconds its steady expansion has become normality, taking place in the background unnoticed by the daily news cycle.

Even though Pentecostalism is a global phenomenon, it has no central authority and presents itself in a wide variety—from the mega-churches that seat 100,000 people in Lagos, Nigeria to the informal office suites in European cities and the baroque cathedrals of the Philippines. However, in all these different environments Pentecostalism borrows methods from the corporate world, such as the use of the latest in communication technologies, massive video walls, satellite and internet broadcasting, and the promise of self fulfillment though advertising and self-help books. Local churches often compete with one another and set themselves apart through their corporate identities, logos and uniforms.

Kids being raised Pentecostal will likely drop the religion as adults. Too extreme.

Do you have a link or source that backs that up? Or is that just your opinion?

my opinion

Although this 2019 research done by a Christian organization shows college students are leaving the church:

https://research.lifeway.com/2019/01/15/most-teenagers-drop-out-of-church-as-young-adults/

Among those who attended a Protestant church as teenager, 7 in 10 say they’re Protestant now. Another 10 percent identify as Catholic. Few say they are agnostic (4 percent) or atheist (3 percent).

“While some young adults who leave church are rejecting their childhood faith, most are choosing to keep many of the beliefs they had, but with a smaller dose of church,” said McConnell.

^from your link

not regularly attending church does not equal leaving the church, especially since in this study they still consider themselves religious (7 out of 10) and only about 3% say they are atheist.

It's a start!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

St. Paul teaches: “All depends on Faith; everything is a Grace.” Faith is a gift, and has nothing to do with any of the larger human and worldly issues you cite. Fr. Von Balthasar says that “Faith is a living turning over of self to God,” and that “Christian experience is the fruit of a life lived in obedience to Faith.” Saint Ignatius reminds us that “[Humanity] was created to know, love and serve God and by this means [to achieve salvation.]

How this works out for me is this: I make every effort to focus on my relationship with God, as God is revealed to me in scripture, Church tradition and my own interior (prayer) life. I make an equal effort not to get sidetracked by the various controversies that surround the Church, because I have no control over Church management or doctrinal development and, quite frankly, because those issues do not directly, immediately and materially impact my own life. To the extent I find a teaching hard to live out, I do my best to accept it and try to put it into action, and to seek forgiveness when I fail. I work to have a well formed conscience, which Church teaching recognizes as the ultimate guide in one’s relationship with God. I have been blessed to find a specific religious community to worship with, where the emphasis is on God’s love, not politics, controversy or the passing things of the world. Since God is love, I try (frequently unsuccessfully) to make that love present inside me and in my actions. I neither place clergy and religious on a “can do no wrong” pedestal, nor expect them to be perfect, either as a body or individually. I respect and am grateful to them as dispensers and ministers of the ineffable mysteries that are the Sacraments, but I realize that they bring their own flawed humanity to that role.

I know most people are operating in good faith when they get drawn into the negativity surrounding the Church, but I sincerely feel that they are in most cases being misdirected and even deceived by the “Father of lies and the Prince of Darkness.” For me, religion has to start and end with God. To the extent worldly structures aid in that, good; to the extent they do not, then they really are just so much noise.

I can say honestly that (while I am subject to doubt as any person is), “I believe, hold and profess as true all that the Holy Catholic Church teaches in Faith.” At the same time, I find it more spiritually productive to focus on my relationship with God and others than to be drawn into the fray about things that are outside my control. While the Church has a millennia-long intellectual tradition that few people (especially nowadays) are intellectually or educationally prepared to critique, Faith cannot be reduced to an intellectual debate. The Pharisees could not comprehend or accept this. Of them, Christ said “let the dead bury their dead.” I go to Mass on Sunday because I want and need to, not because somebody tells me to. Particularly against the background of the Covid lockdown, Mass puts me into contact with fellow believers, in corporate worship, where I can see God’s light in them and be illuminated by it. It gives me access to the grace of the Sacraments. Sometimes I get good, enlightening teaching. If not, I can take what is helpful and leave the rest, at least for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

[Anonymous]

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

I know somebody told you that “Confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the Church,” but that’s bad 1960’s “theology,” and simply not the case. Confirmation completes Christian initiation. It is administered to infants in the Eastern Churches. It is not “Catholic Bar/Bat Mitzvah.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Easy peasy.

Woke-ism is the new Religion, and performance politics the new Church attendance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Media paranoia?

There's been many more cases of pedophiles in Hollywood and politics than among scouts, both in absolute and per capita basis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

I know somebody told you that “Confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the Church,” but that’s bad 1960’s “theology,” and simply not the case. Confirmation completes Christian initiation. It is administered to infants in the Eastern Churches. It is not “Catholic Bar/Bat Mitzvah.”

The family obviously is not in the eastern tradition, or the kids would be confirmed already. Seems like a parent who doesn't believe in the Catholic church shouldn't be forcing teenagers to complete a Christian initiation into the Catholic Church. If the kids want to, fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

You would be warmly welcomed at an Episcopal Church and likely find many former Catholics in the pews who have similar stories to yours. I hope you can find a way to continue to embrace the parts of your faith that bring you peace and community.

And no valid apostolic succession or sacraments.

No apostolic succession because Episcopalians don't have a Pope. They do have sacraments, but you're not condemned to hell for not receiving them

Yes apostolic succession. The chain was never broken in the reformation.

That's what the Catholic Church teaches.