So tired of the crappy housing stock in the DMV combined with skyrocketing prices

[Anonymous]

I own a house in the suburbs in a major city in the Bay Area. 1000 sq feet plain ranch style house worth a million. I also own a house here in the suburbs outside DC which is 3 times the size and is worth 30% less. Would rather own a house 3 times the size for less. Bay Area has great weather though but who would pay 3 times for a house there.

[Anonymous]

OP does not have a wit of imagination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, most of DCUM is bad, but this thread really sets a new low for self-indulgent self-pitying.

DC was a relatively small city/metro area until the Depression (ie, wasn't one of the 15 largest cities in the country until the New Deal and WWII mobilization). So much of the housing here was built either during the Depression and WWII (when resources were scarce and the clientele was middle class govt workers) or after the war. And the fact is MOST postwar suburban housing in the US (please don't tell me about Brad Pitt's mansion in Malibu...) is pretty drab. Honestly, people here are are pining for NY but some of the dated 1960s housing stock in the lesser parts of Westchester and Long Island and NJ looks locations for a bad Mad Men spinoff (although i will admit the NJ housing in the Sopranos was incredibly classy). Do people move to the San Fernando Valley or Lakewood for the charming architecture? I'm not sure why the OP so dislikes split levels - they're actually efficiently designed, and mid-century design has been in vogue for about a decade -- but they're pretty commonplace across the nation.

Yes, you can look at prewar suburbs in one-percenter suburbs like Bronxville or Oyster Bay or the Upper Merion and say "why don't houses in Chantilly have the same charm - that's so unfair to me!" but it's a completely inapt comparison. If you look at DC's prewar luxury homes in Forest Hills or Foxhall or Chevy Chase Village, you'll see comparable houses.

Whining that one's dollar can buy so much more in Baltimore or Shady Side or Shaker Heights or Grosse Pointe than in DC is just silly. Obviously prices are depressed there because of economic or other challenges (yeah, I want the housing costs of metro Cleveland but the professional and cultural offerings of greater DC too -- pls make it happen). Furthermore, comparing the sales prices alone isn't useful because those lower-priced old suburbs generally have much higher property tax rates to provide the services that their residents expect (notwithstanding lower home values).

Ironically, many people who come to DC find that the original prewar housing stock -- the 19th century townhouses of the original city, the 20th century row houses in the outlying parts of the city -- to be not just charming but distinctive. I thought it was a triusm that all taste is subjective, but apparently not on DCUM.

Real estate everywhere involves trade offs, including location, size, age and that ineffable category of charm/appeal. OP thinks they (or all DMV residents) are uniquely vexed in facing that tradeoff -- they're not.

+1 I can’t imagine people moving away from the DMV and telling their friends it was because they couldn’t find an attractive looking house and that the whole region is hideous.

Unless you have a $3 million plus budget, it really is hard to find curb appeal and character here. Lots in DC proper, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and a few homes on the VA side in that range but if you’re looking outside DC for under that, it’s slim pickings. Lots of drab, cheap builds in the style of the moment from every decade.

This sounds like a very extreme point of view

I challenge you to find good design, curb appeal, and character for under $3 million in the suburbs. There are just a few.

Here are some random selections that sold in the last 6 months:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5309-Blackistone-Rd-Bethesda-MD-20816/37175556_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/43-W-Lenox-St-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37199313_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3400-Cummings-Ln-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37181690_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3206-Rolling-Rd-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37174060_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7311-Baltimore-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284424_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7300-Holly-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284749_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4520-32nd-Rd-N-Arlington-VA-22207/12060866_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10610-Wise-Owl-Way-Great-Falls-VA-22066/51699903_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1508-Hardwood-Ln-McLean-VA-22101/51759027_zpid/


I could go on. I literally just clicked on ones for a couple of minutes. If you have 3mm, you can get a beautiful house around here in the suburbs, with plenty of land, and easy access to a city with great jobs and great cultural amenities. If you think the the Main Line, or Shaker Heights, is superior, you are a philistine. Sorry.

Ah, you got me. Two of those fit the bill for $2.7 million. Interest rates are high after all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, most of DCUM is bad, but this thread really sets a new low for self-indulgent self-pitying.

DC was a relatively small city/metro area until the Depression (ie, wasn't one of the 15 largest cities in the country until the New Deal and WWII mobilization). So much of the housing here was built either during the Depression and WWII (when resources were scarce and the clientele was middle class govt workers) or after the war. And the fact is MOST postwar suburban housing in the US (please don't tell me about Brad Pitt's mansion in Malibu...) is pretty drab. Honestly, people here are are pining for NY but some of the dated 1960s housing stock in the lesser parts of Westchester and Long Island and NJ looks locations for a bad Mad Men spinoff (although i will admit the NJ housing in the Sopranos was incredibly classy). Do people move to the San Fernando Valley or Lakewood for the charming architecture? I'm not sure why the OP so dislikes split levels - they're actually efficiently designed, and mid-century design has been in vogue for about a decade -- but they're pretty commonplace across the nation.

Yes, you can look at prewar suburbs in one-percenter suburbs like Bronxville or Oyster Bay or the Upper Merion and say "why don't houses in Chantilly have the same charm - that's so unfair to me!" but it's a completely inapt comparison. If you look at DC's prewar luxury homes in Forest Hills or Foxhall or Chevy Chase Village, you'll see comparable houses.

Whining that one's dollar can buy so much more in Baltimore or Shady Side or Shaker Heights or Grosse Pointe than in DC is just silly. Obviously prices are depressed there because of economic or other challenges (yeah, I want the housing costs of metro Cleveland but the professional and cultural offerings of greater DC too -- pls make it happen). Furthermore, comparing the sales prices alone isn't useful because those lower-priced old suburbs generally have much higher property tax rates to provide the services that their residents expect (notwithstanding lower home values).

Ironically, many people who come to DC find that the original prewar housing stock -- the 19th century townhouses of the original city, the 20th century row houses in the outlying parts of the city -- to be not just charming but distinctive. I thought it was a triusm that all taste is subjective, but apparently not on DCUM.

Real estate everywhere involves trade offs, including location, size, age and that ineffable category of charm/appeal. OP thinks they (or all DMV residents) are uniquely vexed in facing that tradeoff -- they're not.

+1 I can’t imagine people moving away from the DMV and telling their friends it was because they couldn’t find an attractive looking house and that the whole region is hideous.

Unless you have a $3 million plus budget, it really is hard to find curb appeal and character here. Lots in DC proper, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and a few homes on the VA side in that range but if you’re looking outside DC for under that, it’s slim pickings. Lots of drab, cheap builds in the style of the moment from every decade.

This sounds like a very extreme point of view

I challenge you to find good design, curb appeal, and character for under $3 million in the suburbs. There are just a few.

Here are some random selections that sold in the last 6 months:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5309-Blackistone-Rd-Bethesda-MD-20816/37175556_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/43-W-Lenox-St-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37199313_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3400-Cummings-Ln-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37181690_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3206-Rolling-Rd-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37174060_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7311-Baltimore-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284424_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7300-Holly-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284749_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4520-32nd-Rd-N-Arlington-VA-22207/12060866_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10610-Wise-Owl-Way-Great-Falls-VA-22066/51699903_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1508-Hardwood-Ln-McLean-VA-22101/51759027_zpid/


I could go on. I literally just clicked on ones for a couple of minutes. If you have 3mm, you can get a beautiful house around here in the suburbs, with plenty of land, and easy access to a city with great jobs and great cultural amenities. If you think the the Main Line, or Shaker Heights, is superior, you are a philistine. Sorry.

Ah, you got me. Two of those fit the bill for $2.7 million. Interest rates are high after all.

If only two of those houses fit the bill, you are a troll, and please go enjoy Shaker Heights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basically, what you want you can’t afford and what you can afford, you don’t want.

Showing real estate in other markets to make your point is irrelevant. I’m sure there are stunning homes for 1.2M in the midwest but they’re in the midwest.

You found a tiny home that was stunning in the suburbs of LA but would your job transfer there?

DCUM in a nutshell

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, most of DCUM is bad, but this thread really sets a new low for self-indulgent self-pitying.

DC was a relatively small city/metro area until the Depression (ie, wasn't one of the 15 largest cities in the country until the New Deal and WWII mobilization). So much of the housing here was built either during the Depression and WWII (when resources were scarce and the clientele was middle class govt workers) or after the war. And the fact is MOST postwar suburban housing in the US (please don't tell me about Brad Pitt's mansion in Malibu...) is pretty drab. Honestly, people here are are pining for NY but some of the dated 1960s housing stock in the lesser parts of Westchester and Long Island and NJ looks locations for a bad Mad Men spinoff (although i will admit the NJ housing in the Sopranos was incredibly classy). Do people move to the San Fernando Valley or Lakewood for the charming architecture? I'm not sure why the OP so dislikes split levels - they're actually efficiently designed, and mid-century design has been in vogue for about a decade -- but they're pretty commonplace across the nation.

Yes, you can look at prewar suburbs in one-percenter suburbs like Bronxville or Oyster Bay or the Upper Merion and say "why don't houses in Chantilly have the same charm - that's so unfair to me!" but it's a completely inapt comparison. If you look at DC's prewar luxury homes in Forest Hills or Foxhall or Chevy Chase Village, you'll see comparable houses.

Whining that one's dollar can buy so much more in Baltimore or Shady Side or Shaker Heights or Grosse Pointe than in DC is just silly. Obviously prices are depressed there because of economic or other challenges (yeah, I want the housing costs of metro Cleveland but the professional and cultural offerings of greater DC too -- pls make it happen). Furthermore, comparing the sales prices alone isn't useful because those lower-priced old suburbs generally have much higher property tax rates to provide the services that their residents expect (notwithstanding lower home values).

Ironically, many people who come to DC find that the original prewar housing stock -- the 19th century townhouses of the original city, the 20th century row houses in the outlying parts of the city -- to be not just charming but distinctive. I thought it was a triusm that all taste is subjective, but apparently not on DCUM.

Real estate everywhere involves trade offs, including location, size, age and that ineffable category of charm/appeal. OP thinks they (or all DMV residents) are uniquely vexed in facing that tradeoff -- they're not.

+1 I can’t imagine people moving away from the DMV and telling their friends it was because they couldn’t find an attractive looking house and that the whole region is hideous.

Unless you have a $3 million plus budget, it really is hard to find curb appeal and character here. Lots in DC proper, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and a few homes on the VA side in that range but if you’re looking outside DC for under that, it’s slim pickings. Lots of drab, cheap builds in the style of the moment from every decade.

This sounds like a very extreme point of view

I challenge you to find good design, curb appeal, and character for under $3 million in the suburbs. There are just a few.

Here are some random selections that sold in the last 6 months:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5309-Blackistone-Rd-Bethesda-MD-20816/37175556_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/43-W-Lenox-St-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37199313_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3400-Cummings-Ln-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37181690_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3206-Rolling-Rd-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37174060_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7311-Baltimore-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284424_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7300-Holly-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284749_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4520-32nd-Rd-N-Arlington-VA-22207/12060866_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10610-Wise-Owl-Way-Great-Falls-VA-22066/51699903_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1508-Hardwood-Ln-McLean-VA-22101/51759027_zpid/


I could go on. I literally just clicked on ones for a couple of minutes. If you have 3mm, you can get a beautiful house around here in the suburbs, with plenty of land, and easy access to a city with great jobs and great cultural amenities. If you think the the Main Line, or Shaker Heights, is superior, you are a philistine. Sorry.

The only two of those houses I like are the Holly Ave in Takoma Park and the Wise Out Way in Great Falls. But in any case, we're really moving the goal posts if now the ceiling is $3m and not $1.2m. And you can find lots of housing on the Main Line or in Shaker Heights that is much more attractive than any of the houses you just posted, but for under $1.2m instead of under $3m. Which is the whole point -- DC does have some attractive housing, but because of price increases, most UMC people are priced out of it, and are left with the cheap, post-war garbage or the teeniest of row houses. Even if you are willing to commute a bit. Other cities might have that ugly post-war housing or tiny pre-war urban housing, but it's much less expensive than in DC.

Just as an example:

This is what just over $1m buys you in Shaker Heights zoned for great schools in a developed neighborhood with lots of community and amenities: https://www.redfin.com/OH/Shaker-Heights/16390-S-Park-Blvd-44120/home/66097578

This house needs a number of updates but is loaded with charm, IB for great schools, and is a 5 minute walk to a train that will get you right into the heart of Philly in about 25 minutes, and sold for less than $500k last year (leaving tons of room for updates): https://www.redfin.com/PA/Wynnewood/1519-Crest-Rd-19096/home/38501274

Housing in DC is very expensive for what you get. It is what it is, but you absolutely can buy objectively better housing for less, sometimes much less, in other cities all over the country. Housing in DC really is uniquely bad, I'm sorry. There are other reasons to live here, but if your dream is to own a charming house in a great neighborhood, and your make less than like 500-600k/yr, you will be disappointed in DC in a way that you absolutely would not be in other cities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically, what you want you can’t afford and what you can afford, you don’t want.

Showing real estate in other markets to make your point is irrelevant. I’m sure there are stunning homes for 1.2M in the midwest but they’re in the midwest.

You found a tiny home that was stunning in the suburbs of LA but would your job transfer there?

DCUM in a nutshell

You are missing the point.

Adjusted for the cost of living, you can afford a charming house on a middle class salary in other cities, specifically cities in the Northeast and some cities in the Midwest that were well established before the early 20th Century. DC was not a well established city then so it does not have the charming housing stock of these cities with more pre WW2 housing stock. As PPs have said, this is why middle class and UMC people are living in s shacks without any character. It’s either that or a $1.5M+ new build that no one can afford because there are very few pre War homes with character around and those that are around are mostly flipped and sell for $1.5M+ as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically, what you want you can’t afford and what you can afford, you don’t want.

Showing real estate in other markets to make your point is irrelevant. I’m sure there are stunning homes for 1.2M in the midwest but they’re in the midwest.

You found a tiny home that was stunning in the suburbs of LA but would your job transfer there?

DCUM in a nutshell

You are missing the point.

Adjusted for the cost of living, you can afford a charming house on a middle class salary in other cities, specifically cities in the Northeast and some cities in the Midwest that were well established before the early 20th Century. DC was not a well established city then so it does not have the charming housing stock of these cities with more pre WW2 housing stock. As PPs have said, this is why middle class and UMC people are living in s shacks without any character. It’s either that or a $1.5M+ new build that no one can afford because there are very few pre War homes with character around and those that are around are mostly flipped and sell for $1.5M+ as well.

+1 This poster gets it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically, what you want you can’t afford and what you can afford, you don’t want.

Showing real estate in other markets to make your point is irrelevant. I’m sure there are stunning homes for 1.2M in the midwest but they’re in the midwest.

You found a tiny home that was stunning in the suburbs of LA but would your job transfer there?

DCUM in a nutshell

You are missing the point.

Adjusted for the cost of living, you can afford a charming house on a middle class salary in other cities, specifically cities in the Northeast and some cities in the Midwest that were well established before the early 20th Century. DC was not a well established city then so it does not have the charming housing stock of these cities with more pre WW2 housing stock. As PPs have said, this is why middle class and UMC people are living in s shacks without any character. It’s either that or a $1.5M+ new build that no one can afford because there are very few pre War homes with character around and those that are around are mostly flipped and sell for $1.5M+ as well.

Ah, the s shack poster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, most of DCUM is bad, but this thread really sets a new low for self-indulgent self-pitying.

DC was a relatively small city/metro area until the Depression (ie, wasn't one of the 15 largest cities in the country until the New Deal and WWII mobilization). So much of the housing here was built either during the Depression and WWII (when resources were scarce and the clientele was middle class govt workers) or after the war. And the fact is MOST postwar suburban housing in the US (please don't tell me about Brad Pitt's mansion in Malibu...) is pretty drab. Honestly, people here are are pining for NY but some of the dated 1960s housing stock in the lesser parts of Westchester and Long Island and NJ looks locations for a bad Mad Men spinoff (although i will admit the NJ housing in the Sopranos was incredibly classy). Do people move to the San Fernando Valley or Lakewood for the charming architecture? I'm not sure why the OP so dislikes split levels - they're actually efficiently designed, and mid-century design has been in vogue for about a decade -- but they're pretty commonplace across the nation.

Yes, you can look at prewar suburbs in one-percenter suburbs like Bronxville or Oyster Bay or the Upper Merion and say "why don't houses in Chantilly have the same charm - that's so unfair to me!" but it's a completely inapt comparison. If you look at DC's prewar luxury homes in Forest Hills or Foxhall or Chevy Chase Village, you'll see comparable houses.

Whining that one's dollar can buy so much more in Baltimore or Shady Side or Shaker Heights or Grosse Pointe than in DC is just silly. Obviously prices are depressed there because of economic or other challenges (yeah, I want the housing costs of metro Cleveland but the professional and cultural offerings of greater DC too -- pls make it happen). Furthermore, comparing the sales prices alone isn't useful because those lower-priced old suburbs generally have much higher property tax rates to provide the services that their residents expect (notwithstanding lower home values).

Ironically, many people who come to DC find that the original prewar housing stock -- the 19th century townhouses of the original city, the 20th century row houses in the outlying parts of the city -- to be not just charming but distinctive. I thought it was a triusm that all taste is subjective, but apparently not on DCUM.

Real estate everywhere involves trade offs, including location, size, age and that ineffable category of charm/appeal. OP thinks they (or all DMV residents) are uniquely vexed in facing that tradeoff -- they're not.

+1 I can’t imagine people moving away from the DMV and telling their friends it was because they couldn’t find an attractive looking house and that the whole region is hideous.

Unless you have a $3 million plus budget, it really is hard to find curb appeal and character here. Lots in DC proper, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and a few homes on the VA side in that range but if you’re looking outside DC for under that, it’s slim pickings. Lots of drab, cheap builds in the style of the moment from every decade.

This sounds like a very extreme point of view

I challenge you to find good design, curb appeal, and character for under $3 million in the suburbs. There are just a few.

Here are some random selections that sold in the last 6 months:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5309-Blackistone-Rd-Bethesda-MD-20816/37175556_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/43-W-Lenox-St-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37199313_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3400-Cummings-Ln-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37181690_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3206-Rolling-Rd-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37174060_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7311-Baltimore-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284424_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7300-Holly-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284749_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4520-32nd-Rd-N-Arlington-VA-22207/12060866_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10610-Wise-Owl-Way-Great-Falls-VA-22066/51699903_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1508-Hardwood-Ln-McLean-VA-22101/51759027_zpid/


I could go on. I literally just clicked on ones for a couple of minutes. If you have 3mm, you can get a beautiful house around here in the suburbs, with plenty of land, and easy access to a city with great jobs and great cultural amenities. If you think the the Main Line, or Shaker Heights, is superior, you are a philistine. Sorry.

The only two of those houses I like are the Holly Ave in Takoma Park and the Wise Out Way in Great Falls. But in any case, we're really moving the goal posts if now the ceiling is $3m and not $1.2m. And you can find lots of housing on the Main Line or in Shaker Heights that is much more attractive than any of the houses you just posted, but for under $1.2m instead of under $3m. Which is the whole point -- DC does have some attractive housing, but because of price increases, most UMC people are priced out of it, and are left with the cheap, post-war garbage or the teeniest of row houses. Even if you are willing to commute a bit. Other cities might have that ugly post-war housing or tiny pre-war urban housing, but it's much less expensive than in DC.

Just as an example:

This is what just over $1m buys you in Shaker Heights zoned for great schools in a developed neighborhood with lots of community and amenities: https://www.redfin.com/OH/Shaker-Heights/16390-S-Park-Blvd-44120/home/66097578

This house needs a number of updates but is loaded with charm, IB for great schools, and is a 5 minute walk to a train that will get you right into the heart of Philly in about 25 minutes, and sold for less than $500k last year (leaving tons of room for updates): https://www.redfin.com/PA/Wynnewood/1519-Crest-Rd-19096/home/38501274

Housing in DC is very expensive for what you get. It is what it is, but you absolutely can buy objectively better housing for less, sometimes much less, in other cities all over the country. Housing in DC really is uniquely bad, I'm sorry. There are other reasons to live here, but if your dream is to own a charming house in a great neighborhood, and your make less than like 500-600k/yr, you will be disappointed in DC in a way that you absolutely would not be in other cities.

It is not moving the goal posts. It was a direct response to the poster above, who used the 3mm dollar figure.

And I would rather live 30 minutes from DC than from Philly or Cleveland. DC is a far better city, culturally, historically, in terms of jobs. I used to live in Philly, in a really nice part of town that felt quite suburban, and I'd never move back, and certainly not to Wynnewood. Not to mention, the really nice parts of the Main Line, comparable to Chevy Chase or McLean, are really quite expensive, too.

And if Philly or Cleveland were as desirable as DC, those houses would be much more expensive, so I'm not just speaking for myself.

Having said all that - yes, the DC burbs are pretty ugly for the most part.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I could deal with the high prices if it didn't buy such garbage. There are so many houses in DC and the suburbs selling in the $1-1.2m range that are just... bad. Ugly flips, cheaply built new developments, houses in desperate need of major updates.

I used to live in California and before I moved to the DMV (about 15 years ago) I felt like the cost of housing there was insane. And it is. But it has been eclipsed in the DMV, but for much uglier, poor quality houses.

Look at this bungalow in an LA suburbs (Monrovia, which has decent schools and is a nice little community but still good proximity to LA -- a perfect suburb compromise if you have some WFH flexibility). Yes, it's on the small side (3/2, so still plenty big enough for a small family with 1-2 kids). But it's beautiful, updated, in a nice neighborhood, and has great outdoor spaces. For $1.2m.

In the DMV, $1.2m buys you a cramped row house on the Hill with no outdoor space, or a completely unrenovated home in one of the close in suburbs, or an ugly McMansion further out with cheap finishes and no charm.

I'm not just saying housing here is too expensive. It's expensive, and that's driven by demand, and while it's a lot, that's what it costs to live here. I'm saying the housing stock is freaking ugly and in poor shape and you wind up spending money for location and schools but the houses themselves suck. There are so few good houses here, even when you have money to spend. It's just depressing.

I agree with you about the housing stock. But FYI I live in Kensington and our three bedroom 3 bath cape COVID with popped out attic is worth about 600k. You can get houses for much cheaper than 1.2 in the further out suburbs. Agree they aren’t that nice most of the time though. 1950s Levittown style housing with additions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I felt that way and I moved to just outside Annapolis. I’d rather have a long commute from my gorgeous water views house than live in a million dollar shack.

NGL, those Annapolis area water views are pretty tempting sometimes, and South River HS is a very good school pyramid that's still commutable to DC. I'd miss the restaurants, shopping, and culture of DC though. Annapolis culture is just too old money and white for me, and the restaurant scene isn't that great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I felt that way and I moved to just outside Annapolis. I’d rather have a long commute from my gorgeous water views house than live in a million dollar shack.

NGL, those Annapolis area water views are pretty tempting sometimes, and South River HS is a very good school pyramid that's still commutable to DC. I'd miss the restaurants, shopping, and culture of DC though. Annapolis culture is just too old money and white for me, and the restaurant scene isn't that great.

+1, I’ve had this exact same conversation with myself. I love the houses around Annapolis and the schools sound so appealing if you’re used to DC or close in suburbs where even the “good” schools are problematic (overcrowding, redistricting, great ES with bad feeds, etc.). But even if you are commuting to DC, moving to Annapolis is a totally different city with a different culture. Nothing wrong with it, but it doesn’t feel like we’d fit in there. DC and environs are more diverse and it makes it easier to fit in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, most of DCUM is bad, but this thread really sets a new low for self-indulgent self-pitying.

DC was a relatively small city/metro area until the Depression (ie, wasn't one of the 15 largest cities in the country until the New Deal and WWII mobilization). So much of the housing here was built either during the Depression and WWII (when resources were scarce and the clientele was middle class govt workers) or after the war. And the fact is MOST postwar suburban housing in the US (please don't tell me about Brad Pitt's mansion in Malibu...) is pretty drab. Honestly, people here are are pining for NY but some of the dated 1960s housing stock in the lesser parts of Westchester and Long Island and NJ looks locations for a bad Mad Men spinoff (although i will admit the NJ housing in the Sopranos was incredibly classy). Do people move to the San Fernando Valley or Lakewood for the charming architecture? I'm not sure why the OP so dislikes split levels - they're actually efficiently designed, and mid-century design has been in vogue for about a decade -- but they're pretty commonplace across the nation.

Yes, you can look at prewar suburbs in one-percenter suburbs like Bronxville or Oyster Bay or the Upper Merion and say "why don't houses in Chantilly have the same charm - that's so unfair to me!" but it's a completely inapt comparison. If you look at DC's prewar luxury homes in Forest Hills or Foxhall or Chevy Chase Village, you'll see comparable houses.

Whining that one's dollar can buy so much more in Baltimore or Shady Side or Shaker Heights or Grosse Pointe than in DC is just silly. Obviously prices are depressed there because of economic or other challenges (yeah, I want the housing costs of metro Cleveland but the professional and cultural offerings of greater DC too -- pls make it happen). Furthermore, comparing the sales prices alone isn't useful because those lower-priced old suburbs generally have much higher property tax rates to provide the services that their residents expect (notwithstanding lower home values).

Ironically, many people who come to DC find that the original prewar housing stock -- the 19th century townhouses of the original city, the 20th century row houses in the outlying parts of the city -- to be not just charming but distinctive. I thought it was a triusm that all taste is subjective, but apparently not on DCUM.

Real estate everywhere involves trade offs, including location, size, age and that ineffable category of charm/appeal. OP thinks they (or all DMV residents) are uniquely vexed in facing that tradeoff -- they're not.

+1 I can’t imagine people moving away from the DMV and telling their friends it was because they couldn’t find an attractive looking house and that the whole region is hideous.

Unless you have a $3 million plus budget, it really is hard to find curb appeal and character here. Lots in DC proper, Chevy Chase, Bethesda, and a few homes on the VA side in that range but if you’re looking outside DC for under that, it’s slim pickings. Lots of drab, cheap builds in the style of the moment from every decade.

This sounds like a very extreme point of view

I challenge you to find good design, curb appeal, and character for under $3 million in the suburbs. There are just a few.

Here are some random selections that sold in the last 6 months:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5309-Blackistone-Rd-Bethesda-MD-20816/37175556_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/43-W-Lenox-St-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37199313_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3400-Cummings-Ln-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37181690_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3206-Rolling-Rd-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/37174060_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7311-Baltimore-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284424_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7300-Holly-Ave-Takoma-Park-MD-20912/37284749_zpid/?

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4520-32nd-Rd-N-Arlington-VA-22207/12060866_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10610-Wise-Owl-Way-Great-Falls-VA-22066/51699903_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1508-Hardwood-Ln-McLean-VA-22101/51759027_zpid/


I could go on. I literally just clicked on ones for a couple of minutes. If you have 3mm, you can get a beautiful house around here in the suburbs, with plenty of land, and easy access to a city with great jobs and great cultural amenities. If you think the the Main Line, or Shaker Heights, is superior, you are a philistine. Sorry.

The only two of those houses I like are the Holly Ave in Takoma Park and the Wise Out Way in Great Falls. But in any case, we're really moving the goal posts if now the ceiling is $3m and not $1.2m. And you can find lots of housing on the Main Line or in Shaker Heights that is much more attractive than any of the houses you just posted, but for under $1.2m instead of under $3m. Which is the whole point -- DC does have some attractive housing, but because of price increases, most UMC people are priced out of it, and are left with the cheap, post-war garbage or the teeniest of row houses. Even if you are willing to commute a bit. Other cities might have that ugly post-war housing or tiny pre-war urban housing, but it's much less expensive than in DC.

Just as an example:

This is what just over $1m buys you in Shaker Heights zoned for great schools in a developed neighborhood with lots of community and amenities: https://www.redfin.com/OH/Shaker-Heights/16390-S-Park-Blvd-44120/home/66097578

This house needs a number of updates but is loaded with charm, IB for great schools, and is a 5 minute walk to a train that will get you right into the heart of Philly in about 25 minutes, and sold for less than $500k last year (leaving tons of room for updates): https://www.redfin.com/PA/Wynnewood/1519-Crest-Rd-19096/home/38501274

Housing in DC is very expensive for what you get. It is what it is, but you absolutely can buy objectively better housing for less, sometimes much less, in other cities all over the country. Housing in DC really is uniquely bad, I'm sorry. There are other reasons to live here, but if your dream is to own a charming house in a great neighborhood, and your make less than like 500-600k/yr, you will be disappointed in DC in a way that you absolutely would not be in other cities.

It is not moving the goal posts. It was a direct response to the poster above, who used the 3mm dollar figure.

And I would rather live 30 minutes from DC than from Philly or Cleveland. DC is a far better city, culturally, historically, in terms of jobs. I used to live in Philly, in a really nice part of town that felt quite suburban, and I'd never move back, and certainly not to Wynnewood. Not to mention, the really nice parts of the Main Line, comparable to Chevy Chase or McLean, are really quite expensive, too.

And if Philly or Cleveland were as desirable as DC, those houses would be much more expensive, so I'm not just speaking for myself.

Having said all that - yes, the DC burbs are pretty ugly for the most part.

My point is that the entire thread is moving the goal posts if this is where the conversation has gone. The whole premise of the thread is “it’s very hard to find attractive housing in this area for under 1.2m.” If we’re now posting cute houses for 2.7m, we’ve basically proven the premise of the thread.

And as I said, there are plenty of reasons to live in DC other than housing stock. But many of us had dreams for our lives that involved owning a home we really like the look of, that felt good to be in. And worked hard in life to earn enough to buy something like that. Shopping for real estate in DC for me is sad because I feel like I have to let that dream go in order to satisfy more practical concerns like commute and schools. Not a tragedy, but I definitely envy friends and family in other cities who own pretty homes that they easily bought for like 500-700k. And now can afford to do things like renovate kitchens, or just save more or take nice vacations because where they live has a more favorable average salary to cost of housing ratio. In DC, we have found we pretty much always buy at the tip top of our budget just to get something satisfactory. Housing in this area is tough and it’s weird to argue it’s not, relative to other cities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically, what you want you can’t afford and what you can afford, you don’t want.

Showing real estate in other markets to make your point is irrelevant. I’m sure there are stunning homes for 1.2M in the midwest but they’re in the midwest.

You found a tiny home that was stunning in the suburbs of LA but would your job transfer there?

DCUM in a nutshell

You are missing the point.

Adjusted for the cost of living, you can afford a charming house on a middle class salary in other cities, specifically cities in the Northeast and some cities in the Midwest that were well established before the early 20th Century. DC was not a well established city then so it does not have the charming housing stock of these cities with more pre WW2 housing stock. As PPs have said, this is why middle class and UMC people are living in s shacks without any character. It’s either that or a $1.5M+ new build that no one can afford because there are very few pre War homes with character around and those that are around are mostly flipped and sell for $1.5M+ as well.

Who cares? I don’t live in the damn Midwest