Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Duke, Northwestern, other Ivies What Does It Take ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

Very quick response: application numbers are up by the tens of thousands vs pre-pandemic. Some attribute to test optional (kids who normally would have been deterred by testing requirement are now submitting without scores). Other note applications are simply up due to population growth and kids being more savvy and applying to more places. Kids now typically apply to 10+ colleges leading to below 10% at a lot of schools. Should also note this is roughly happening at top 100 schools. Regional universities and smaller schools are not universally seeing such applicant growth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

Very quick response: application numbers are up by the tens of thousands vs pre-pandemic. Some attribute to test optional (kids who normally would have been deterred by testing requirement are now submitting without scores). Other note applications are simply up due to population growth and kids being more savvy and applying to more places. Kids now typically apply to 10+ colleges leading to below 10% at a lot of schools. Should also note this is roughly happening at top 100 schools. Regional universities and smaller schools are not universally seeing such applicant growth.

Thanks! Is anyone counting on waitlist movement or getting a sophomore admit pass? The latter wasn’t done when I was applying to college, but my neighbor’s son got a sophomore admit pass to Cornell last spring and she said a handful of her son’s friends received similar offers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

Very quick response: application numbers are up by the tens of thousands vs pre-pandemic. Some attribute to test optional (kids who normally would have been deterred by testing requirement are now submitting without scores). Other note applications are simply up due to population growth and kids being more savvy and applying to more places. Kids now typically apply to 10+ colleges leading to below 10% at a lot of schools. Should also note this is roughly happening at top 100 schools. Regional universities and smaller schools are not universally seeing such applicant growth.

Thanks! Is anyone counting on waitlist movement or getting a sophomore admit pass? The latter wasn’t done when I was applying to college, but my neighbor’s son got a sophomore admit pass to Cornell last spring and she said a handful of her son’s friends received similar offers.

My understanding is those numbers are not counted in admit rates but are not actually a very big part of what is going on. Anecdotally we hear of this happening but not a big enough number that would offset the major increase in overall applications.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

Very quick response: application numbers are up by the tens of thousands vs pre-pandemic. Some attribute to test optional (kids who normally would have been deterred by testing requirement are now submitting without scores). Other note applications are simply up due to population growth and kids being more savvy and applying to more places. Kids now typically apply to 10+ colleges leading to below 10% at a lot of schools. Should also note this is roughly happening at top 100 schools. Regional universities and smaller schools are not universally seeing such applicant growth.

Also, the Common App has significantly contributed to this problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son is being recruited by an Ivy to play tennis. He also has an 800 math sat and his lowest grade was an A- in a 9th grade class taken in 8th grade.

I don’t know why people assume jocks are dumb.

Which ivy? Definitely not Harvard Princeton or Columbia. Tennis players are some of the smartest. Who is saying that

Two Harvard athletic commits at my dd’s private. One is in top 10 percent of class, the other in bottom 25 percent.

When people say “on average,” athletic recruits have lesser stats, this is what they mean. That doesn’t preclude there being some athletic recruits with very good stats.

I'm not sure how a kid like this would get over the AI cutoff for Harvard (which is generally the highest in the league), unless they had perfect SATs or something to balance things out.

Grades are even more important in these post-COVID test optional days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody grows up from kindergarten I want to go to Chicago or Northwestern. Or even Amherst or Williams or Pomona. They are forced into it. They dream about going to Ivies. Only exception is somebody who may have grown up as a Duke or Georgetown basketball fan.

Absolutely nobody grows up from kindergarten saying they want to go to UPenn or Columbia or Cornell or Dartmouth or Brown.

Also, why is your grammar so poor?

They do if their parents or siblings went there.

Nobody "grows up from kindergarten" saying they want to go to Harvard or Princeton either, except for weird, second-generation Asians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody grows up from kindergarten I want to go to Chicago or Northwestern. Or even Amherst or Williams or Pomona. They are forced into it. They dream about going to Ivies. Only exception is somebody who may have grown up as a Duke or Georgetown basketball fan.

Absolutely nobody grows up from kindergarten saying they want to go to UPenn or Columbia or Cornell or Dartmouth or Brown.

Also, why is your grammar so poor?

They do if their parents or siblings went there.

Nobody "grows up from kindergarten" saying they want to go to Harvard or Princeton either, except for weird, second-generation Asians.

The whole point is that the dumba** PP was claiming that people dream of the Ivy League since kindergarten, not *those other schools*, thus (in their logic), the Ivy League is superior. Just dumb and incorrect on all fronts.

Also, no need to be racist.

[Anonymous]

I know lots of individuals whose dream school was not an Ivy League school. Texas, Penn State, Boston College, Notre Dame, USC, and many others are dream schools for a lot of students and their families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know lots of individuals whose dream school was not an Ivy League school. Texas, Penn State, Boston College, Notre Dame, USC, and many others are dream schools for a lot of students and their families.

Yes as their parents took them to games etc. For example, a relative who went to VA Tech is extremely wealthy-sold her company etc., kids at top area private, will send her kids to VA Tech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams and Amherst have single digit admissions rates. The rates you cite can only possibly by ED and if so, as a PP said, are very skewed by atheltes which they probably recruit in the same raw numbers as ivies but the colleges themselves are much smaller. At my
kids’ mcps high school, many more students were admitted to Cornell than either of these.

In the world of kids I know, the ones who were admitted to H/Y/P were true superstars. Not just perfect gpa, perfect sat and the most rigorous classes (and when I say most rigorous, I really mean it - not just thru MV but also took all of the english and social studies APs, took multiple hard science APs, and finished world language AP junior year). But also excelled in other things - music, science competitions, quizbowl or debate. These were the 2-3 kids in a class of 500 who you “knew” would one day go to H/Y/P. There are of course other students every year who get into Penn,Columbia, Dartmouth - these kids are also terrific students but don’t have that “extra” and so there are a lot more of them so it actually seems less predictable to me why Lola got into Penn and Larla
did not.

And again, I think from our HS the students have an easier time getting into Penn and Dartmouth than Williams and Amherst where the 1-2 admits are usually sports recruits (and terrific students).

My answer expands on this but generally tracks. Top 10 schools are for the very top kids at a high school. Truly, top 3-5 in class (not 5%), above 1550 test scores, major leadership (President of class, captain of championship winning team sort of stuff). They will likely get rejected to some places too but I have seen most of those kids get into 1 top 10 school that is considered the long shot - particularly if they can apply SCEA/ED.

I think where DCUM gets confused is many of us have a kid who is awesome but not quite that level: maybe 1550 SAT and near perfect grades but only top 10 kids in class. Maybe President if a smaller club. And, that kid is awesome but there are so many out there like that. I have one of these. He is not going to get into an Ivy (maybe he would have in my generation, but that is not relevant) and he is not sad about it. He knows he is accomplished but there are more qualified candidates. He has found a few schools beyond the top 20 he would be excited to attend. They are tremendous colleges.

We can all believe our kids are great and worked hard but rationally understand they are not worthy of a spot where only 6/100 kids get in. And be proud of them and excited for college!

I am sure Northwestern is a good school, but the students from our private DC high school who apply and get in NU are not the top students in the grade. Probably top 25-30%

Which private DC high school ?

I find this hard to believe. Northwestern University reports that slightly over 95% of matriculated (Fall 2020 entering class) students who graduated high school in 2020 were in the Top 10% of their HS class.

For a relative comparison, US News reports the percentage of Fall 2020 entering class who graduated in the top 10% of their high school class:

Princeton 89%
Columbia 96% (but not sure if this was part of the fraudulent date submitted by Columbia to US News)
Harvard 94%
MIT 100%
Yale 94%

Stanford 96%
U Chicago 99%
U Penn 96%
CalTech 96%
Duke 95%

Johns Hopkins 99%
Northwestern 95%
Dartmouth College 93%
Brown 95%
Vanderbilt 90%

WashUStL 86%
Cornell 84%
Rice 92%
Notre Dame 90%
Emory 83%

Georgetown 83%
Michigan 77%
Carnegie Mellon 89%
U Virginia 90%
NYU 82%

Tufts 84%
UNC-Chapel Hill 74%
Wake Forest 73%
Boston College 79%
Georgia Tech 88%

William & Mary 77%
Boston University 66%
Tulane 63%

SLACs:

Williams 95%
Amherst 855
Swarthmore 93%
Pomona 90%
Wellesley 85%

Bowdoin 84%
Claremont McKenna 73%
Carleton College 70%
Middlebury 80%
Wash & Lee 80%

Davidson 76%
Grinnell 72%
Hamilton 86%
Haverford 94%
Barnard 90%

Colby 74%
Colgate 65%
Wesleyan 67%
U Richmond 50%
Vassar 73%

Bates College 60%
Colorado College 73%
Macalester 66%
Kenyon 55%
Bucknell 54%

Skidmore 33%
Furman 44%

At many schools, only 20% of so of enrolled students had class rank reported, so this can be highly misleading. Class rank is not known or reported in Common Data Sets for the remaining 70-80%.

Sure. Look, mit is not admitting kids that are not at the top of their class. Maybe the high school won't rank the students but you can sure that MIT is directly comparing all the students applying from the same school. And guess what ..they are admitting the ones at the top of the pile. Sorry

I didn't comment on MIT specifically. Why are you responding with MIT specifically and then saying "sorry"?

Substitute any elite school you want. The students at the top of the class have an advantage in admissions. Even if the HS is not ranking the students, the admissions committee is. There was a poster that was implying this is not an extremely important consideration which I think is nonsense.

My point was that it is a stat that can be manipulated. This isn't likely by MIT, but it is by schools trying to climb the USNWR rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So my kids went private (two different graduation years) to ivies below HYP. At our top private, Chicago Northwestern etc. was for kids who didn’t think they could make Ivy but wanted a decent rank. They didn’t think they could even get Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. So they might have EDed 1 Cornell or Dartmouth say but ED2ed Chicago. Of the ones that ED1ed northwestern, they did so because they saw top of class applying to ivies and knew they would lose out. Don’t get me wrong great schools but most I think would take any Ivy out of our area due to East Coast bias. Duke is more competitive over Brown, Cornell, and Dartmouth.

Ditto. At the top DC privates, Chicago is not for the top 10% of the class.
These schools sen 10% of the class to Chicago, in addition to the 20% to the Ivies.
NCS is another example. 10% last year to Chicago; in addition to the Ivy admits.

I hope you are correct but I think the admissions scene has tightened. My "top" kid at a DC private was told Northwestern, Duke and Vandy were as much of a reach as any Ivy. Same with Amherst, Williams etc. Same with Chicago unless you are ED. He is looking at top schools but less interested in ranking and more interested in the characteristics he is seeking (major, quality of opportunities, vibe of student body, size, location). Some Ivies match perfectly, others don't at all. So it certainly doesn't feel like a shoo-in because many schools are not good fits and getting into the ones that are seems tough. Even the safeties could go wrong. You make it seem easy and I feel like that won't be the case, though I wish it were.

As a parent of younger children following this thread who went to college a little over a decade ago (so not up to speed on what is happening with admissions right now) why is it so much harder now?

Very quick response: application numbers are up by the tens of thousands vs pre-pandemic. Some attribute to test optional (kids who normally would have been deterred by testing requirement are now submitting without scores). Other note applications are simply up due to population growth and kids being more savvy and applying to more places. Kids now typically apply to 10+ colleges leading to below 10% at a lot of schools. Should also note this is roughly happening at top 100 schools. Regional universities and smaller schools are not universally seeing such applicant growth.

Also, the Common App has significantly contributed to this problem.

Problem for whom?

[Anonymous]

People on this board will disagree, but I see a pull away from the standard privileged, high-stats person coming from a pricey private school. Of course, legacies are still a thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People on this board will disagree, but I see a pull away from the standard privileged, high-stats person coming from a pricey private school. Of course, legacies are still a thing.

Can you elaborate on your point? And support?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People on this board will disagree, but I see a pull away from the standard privileged, high-stats person coming from a pricey private school. Of course, legacies are still a thing.

I mostly agree. Chicago seems to be a big exception. They have been taking a large number of high-stats private school applicants from the DMV. Anecdotally, at several applied and were admitted ED2.