Are therapists doing unmasked therapy for kids with anxiety about covid stuff yet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How quickly this thread has shifted from an apparently reasonable concern voiced by a parent to unsupported ranting about masks, deliberate mischaracterizations of comments, and “alternative facts”.

Here’s an important takeaway: Professionals, particularly those in clinical professions, will do their best to protect their families, their clients, and themselves in these uncertain, challenging and changing times. No amount of ranting on the part of people who want to politicize public health issues will change this. What it will change, is that professionals will increasingly limit their practices, retire, and leave their professions for other options — in the face of the selfish expectations that therapists and other health professionals put themselves at risk for the supposed needs (both actual and imagined) of those who seek their services. In many areas, well trained clinicians, particularly those who specialize in working with children, are at a premium. Look for that to get worse as the many risks associated with working in these types of professions far outweigh any possible benefits, and as the realities of capitalism far outweigh the kinds of values that often lead people to pursue these professions at considerable cost to themselves .

Ok so do you think OP can reasonably ask for an unmasked therapist for her child? Can a parent with a speech delayed child ask for an unmasked therapist? Autism? Or are we not allowed to because this fails to demonstrate our understanding that our kids are just bothers and “risks” and we need to accept whatever we get. (Nevermind that we are usually paying your fees out of pocket, or have a legal right to the services under IDEA.)

Yes, I think OP can reasonably ask for this. I also think that it’s more than reasonable for a therapist to refuse this request— for multiple reasons. While you are “allowed” to seek out services that you feel are appropriate, people providing those services are not only “allowed “ but ethically required to maintain environments that reduce health risks to others as well as to themselves. Clients don’t get to randomly dictate those standards. “Paying out of pocket” doesn’t change this.

While you MAY have “a legal right to services under IDEA”, there are limits to those “rights”. For practical purposes, since so many of the posters maintain that wanting to wear a mask when providing therapy is an anomaly, the simplest thing would be to find a therapist who doesn’t wear a mask. An individual patient has absolutely no right to services from a particular provider, and zero right to forcing an individual provider to alter their standards of care based on a particular client’s personal whims.

Precisely. There is autonomy in both directions at the individual level.

Your “autonomy” entails failing to do an important part of your job. As a therapist your autonomy does not entitle you to deliver bad services.

When the professional organization that provides certification for your specialty is at odds with an anonymous person on a discussion forum as to what constitutes best practices, I'm sorry to say the judgment of the DCUM poster does not hold the trump card.

Nobody is entitled to services from a particular provider, and you say this practice out of the norm. It should be simple to find another practitioner in line with your views. I have every faith you can and will, and I wish you well with it.

ASHA needs to reconsider its guidance and actually consider the obvious problems with masked speech therapy. And no its not simple to find new providers who unmask particularly if mask policies are set by the practice owners and not therapists.

Okay, so it's not just DC, but the surrounding states around DC, as well as some areas, but definitely not common. Okay.

It seems to be DC, MoCo, and SF now. The fact that the rest of the country has gone back to normal may unfortunately make it difficult for ASHA to take any action. Just being silent and letting everyone naturally return to normal is easier than ASHA having to take an honest look at the time period in which people were claiming that virtual school was fine and masked speech therapy totally OK too. That leaves us here having to fight to reestablish normality.

The local military base just went back to full masking. Covid is not ok right now.

Covid rates are down 15% nationwide, down 10% in DC today compared to 2 weeks ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If op has a thoughtful child willing to mask, why would you discourage them or refuse to have them mask. Maybe part of this is parenting.

My thoughtful child knows kids have always been low risk for severe disease, and that adults now have access to vaccines and therapeutics. And that the evidence on masks is really, really flimsy. And that they're uncomfortable to breathe in and that they impede communication and that no one wears them when we visit family out of the area and they're not keeling over or landing in the hospital. She can see through the BS.

Anyone with common sense can see through the BS. Covid spread rapidly despite people masking. Even if we did require 24-7 masking when not at home, covid would still spread.

Except people really, truly are irrationally commited to masks. I know people who got covid masked and still mask, but in places the arbitrarily believe are more dangerous. Like Safeway, but not the gym. What it really comes down to is a cognitive error of believing that masks protect you when you perceive other people as risks and have no reason to unmask; but in situations where you have a desire to unmask, then masks are not necessary. I believe this is the same type of cognitive error of DC-area therapists: they almost certainly unmask when it benefits them and discount the risks (like on vacation, out to dinner, the gym), but mask when they think it benefits them (like at work) AND they can control what other people do.

Good Masks (N-95s etc) provide protection from Covid transmission to some degree if worn correctly. It is impossible to have any type of discussion if we cannot agree on that scientifically verified point.

likewise impossible to discuss if you don’t acknowledge the burdens of wearing a mask.

[Anonymous]

Having therapist of all kinds wear masks is going to be burdensome for some children, and very burdensome for some.

And some therapists (or their clinic managers) can and should make the call to do that, depending on their situation.

It's hard, and it sucks, and that doesn't mean it isn't the right choice for some. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

[Anonymous]

I can't imagine that any therapist worth half her salt can't get through to a kid without traumatizing the kid that a mask on both is a good idea, no matter how anxious the kid is. If you're telling me that that's not possible with your kid, then al I can say is maybe your kid needs more than outpatient treatment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine that any therapist worth half her salt can't get through to a kid without traumatizing the kid that a mask on both is a good idea, no matter how anxious the kid is. If you're telling me that that's not possible with your kid, then al I can say is maybe your kid needs more than outpatient treatment.

But the whole point is to reduce the child’s covid anxiety. Mask theater to deliver psychotherapy to a child with covid anxiety is just really, really twisted. In OP’s shoes I would likely go to Virginia where they are more likely to find an unmasked therapist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If op has a thoughtful child willing to mask, why would you discourage them or refuse to have them mask. Maybe part of this is parenting.

My thoughtful child knows kids have always been low risk for severe disease, and that adults now have access to vaccines and therapeutics. And that the evidence on masks is really, really flimsy. And that they're uncomfortable to breathe in and that they impede communication and that no one wears them when we visit family out of the area and they're not keeling over or landing in the hospital. She can see through the BS.

Anyone with common sense can see through the BS. Covid spread rapidly despite people masking. Even if we did require 24-7 masking when not at home, covid would still spread.

Except people really, truly are irrationally commited to masks. I know people who got covid masked and still mask, but in places the arbitrarily believe are more dangerous. Like Safeway, but not the gym. What it really comes down to is a cognitive error of believing that masks protect you when you perceive other people as risks and have no reason to unmask; but in situations where you have a desire to unmask, then masks are not necessary. I believe this is the same type of cognitive error of DC-area therapists: they almost certainly unmask when it benefits them and discount the risks (like on vacation, out to dinner, the gym), but mask when they think it benefits them (like at work) AND they can control what other people do.

You’re over-generalizing based on your own imagination and experiences. There really are people, particularly those in health professions who have been mostly careful most of the time, often out of an abundance— possibly an over abundance— of caution and concern for the other people in our lives. You give two choices here: “truly irrational “ and “truly irrational” AND hypocritical— with little to bolster your own certainty beyond your own personal habits and beliefs.

FWIW — not everyone is discounting risks, and not everyone is going to the gym indoors or eating in restaurants and discounting the potential risks that they might associate with doing so. Projection is no substitute for actual information.

Ok fine, but you also need to honestly discuss the costs to children of masking, especially during speech therapy and therapy with kids on the spectrum. You can't just ignore it and claim that everyone's subjective, idiosycratic view of risk cancels out every other concern.

I have done this — focusing on psychotherapy for the anxious kids, which I know more about than speech therapy. It’s not something I would ignore— it’s part of developing a balance of often competing priorities. As for that last bit, since it’s not a “claim” that I have made or would make, I don’t have a response. I’m just one person in this thread though.

[Anonymous]

DP. But an individual's subjective and idiosyncratic views of risk re: COVID do trump everything else -- that is, nobody is an indentured servant or can be chained to a wall to provide unmasked care.

I suppose they can be let go or fired, but they can't forcibly be made to take risks. I think you know that, though. It's basic bodily autonomy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP. But an individual's subjective and idiosyncratic views of risk re: COVID do trump everything else -- that is, nobody is an indentured servant or can be chained to a wall to provide unmasked care.

I suppose they can be let go or fired, but they can't forcibly be made to take risks. I think you know that, though. It's basic bodily autonomy.

If your views on health risks are out of step with the rest of the country/world, and they are likely interfering with therapy, then yeah, the provider has a duty to think it through. We are almost three years into this; no more excuse for policies that compromise care (like masked speech therapy, limiting visitors in hospitals) just because it has the appearance of reducing risk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How quickly this thread has shifted from an apparently reasonable concern voiced by a parent to unsupported ranting about masks, deliberate mischaracterizations of comments, and “alternative facts”.

Here’s an important takeaway: Professionals, particularly those in clinical professions, will do their best to protect their families, their clients, and themselves in these uncertain, challenging and changing times. No amount of ranting on the part of people who want to politicize public health issues will change this. What it will change, is that professionals will increasingly limit their practices, retire, and leave their professions for other options — in the face of the selfish expectations that therapists and other health professionals put themselves at risk for the supposed needs (both actual and imagined) of those who seek their services. In many areas, well trained clinicians, particularly those who specialize in working with children, are at a premium. Look for that to get worse as the many risks associated with working in these types of professions far outweigh any possible benefits, and as the realities of capitalism far outweigh the kinds of values that often lead people to pursue these professions at considerable cost to themselves .

Ok so do you think OP can reasonably ask for an unmasked therapist for her child? Can a parent with a speech delayed child ask for an unmasked therapist? Autism? Or are we not allowed to because this fails to demonstrate our understanding that our kids are just bothers and “risks” and we need to accept whatever we get. (Nevermind that we are usually paying your fees out of pocket, or have a legal right to the services under IDEA.)

Yes, I think OP can reasonably ask for this. I also think that it’s more than reasonable for a therapist to refuse this request— for multiple reasons. While you are “allowed” to seek out services that you feel are appropriate, people providing those services are not only “allowed “ but ethically required to maintain environments that reduce health risks to others as well as to themselves. Clients don’t get to randomly dictate those standards. “Paying out of pocket” doesn’t change this.

While you MAY have “a legal right to services under IDEA”, there are limits to those “rights”. For practical purposes, since so many of the posters maintain that wanting to wear a mask when providing therapy is an anomaly, the simplest thing would be to find a therapist who doesn’t wear a mask. An individual patient has absolutely no right to services from a particular provider, and zero right to forcing an individual provider to alter their standards of care based on a particular client’s personal whims.

Precisely. There is autonomy in both directions at the individual level.

Your “autonomy” entails failing to do an important part of your job. As a therapist your autonomy does not entitle you to deliver bad services.

When the professional organization that provides certification for your specialty is at odds with an anonymous person on a discussion forum as to what constitutes best practices, I'm sorry to say the judgment of the DCUM poster does not hold the trump card.

Nobody is entitled to services from a particular provider, and you say this practice out of the norm. It should be simple to find another practitioner in line with your views. I have every faith you can and will, and I wish you well with it.

ASHA needs to reconsider its guidance and actually consider the obvious problems with masked speech therapy. And no its not simple to find new providers who unmask particularly if mask policies are set by the practice owners and not therapists.

Okay, so it's not just DC, but the surrounding states around DC, as well as some areas, but definitely not common. Okay.

It seems to be DC, MoCo, and SF now. The fact that the rest of the country has gone back to normal may unfortunately make it difficult for ASHA to take any action. Just being silent and letting everyone naturally return to normal is easier than ASHA having to take an honest look at the time period in which people were claiming that virtual school was fine and masked speech therapy totally OK too. That leaves us here having to fight to reestablish normality.

The local military base just went back to full masking. Covid is not ok right now.

Covid rates are down 15% nationwide, down 10% in DC today compared to 2 weeks ago.

Most people home test and don’t report.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. But an individual's subjective and idiosyncratic views of risk re: COVID do trump everything else -- that is, nobody is an indentured servant or can be chained to a wall to provide unmasked care.

I suppose they can be let go or fired, but they can't forcibly be made to take risks. I think you know that, though. It's basic bodily autonomy.

If your views on health risks are out of step with the rest of the country/world, and they are likely interfering with therapy, then yeah, the provider has a duty to think it through. We are almost three years into this; no more excuse for policies that compromise care (like masked speech therapy, limiting visitors in hospitals) just because it has the appearance of reducing risk.

The provider did think it through. You may not like it but it is their decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine that any therapist worth half her salt can't get through to a kid without traumatizing the kid that a mask on both is a good idea, no matter how anxious the kid is. If you're telling me that that's not possible with your kid, then al I can say is maybe your kid needs more than outpatient treatment.

But the whole point is to reduce the child’s covid anxiety. Mask theater to deliver psychotherapy to a child with covid anxiety is just really, really twisted. In OP’s shoes I would likely go to Virginia where they are more likely to find an unmasked therapist.

The child wants to mask and op will not let the child. Covid is not why this child is struggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine that any therapist worth half her salt can't get through to a kid without traumatizing the kid that a mask on both is a good idea, no matter how anxious the kid is. If you're telling me that that's not possible with your kid, then al I can say is maybe your kid needs more than outpatient treatment.

But the whole point is to reduce the child’s covid anxiety. Mask theater to deliver psychotherapy to a child with covid anxiety is just really, really twisted. In OP’s shoes I would likely go to Virginia where they are more likely to find an unmasked therapist.

You're not objective. Your agenda is crystal clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If op has a thoughtful child willing to mask, why would you discourage them or refuse to have them mask. Maybe part of this is parenting.

My thoughtful child knows kids have always been low risk for severe disease, and that adults now have access to vaccines and therapeutics. And that the evidence on masks is really, really flimsy. And that they're uncomfortable to breathe in and that they impede communication and that no one wears them when we visit family out of the area and they're not keeling over or landing in the hospital. She can see through the BS.

Anyone with common sense can see through the BS. Covid spread rapidly despite people masking. Even if we did require 24-7 masking when not at home, covid would still spread.

Except people really, truly are irrationally commited to masks. I know people who got covid masked and still mask, but in places the arbitrarily believe are more dangerous. Like Safeway, but not the gym. What it really comes down to is a cognitive error of believing that masks protect you when you perceive other people as risks and have no reason to unmask; but in situations where you have a desire to unmask, then masks are not necessary. I believe this is the same type of cognitive error of DC-area therapists: they almost certainly unmask when it benefits them and discount the risks (like on vacation, out to dinner, the gym), but mask when they think it benefits them (like at work) AND they can control what other people do.

You’re over-generalizing based on your own imagination and experiences. There really are people, particularly those in health professions who have been mostly careful most of the time, often out of an abundance— possibly an over abundance— of caution and concern for the other people in our lives. You give two choices here: “truly irrational “ and “truly irrational” AND hypocritical— with little to bolster your own certainty beyond your own personal habits and beliefs.

FWIW — not everyone is discounting risks, and not everyone is going to the gym indoors or eating in restaurants and discounting the potential risks that they might associate with doing so. Projection is no substitute for actual information.

Ok fine, but you also need to honestly discuss the costs to children of masking, especially during speech therapy and therapy with kids on the spectrum. You can't just ignore it and claim that everyone's subjective, idiosycratic view of risk cancels out every other concern.

The provider masks. If you don’t like it get a new therapist or do it yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DP. But an individual's subjective and idiosyncratic views of risk re: COVID do trump everything else -- that is, nobody is an indentured servant or can be chained to a wall to provide unmasked care.

I suppose they can be let go or fired, but they can't forcibly be made to take risks. I think you know that, though. It's basic bodily autonomy.

If your views on health risks are out of step with the rest of the country/world, and they are likely interfering with therapy, then yeah, the provider has a duty to think it through. We are almost three years into this; no more excuse for policies that compromise care (like masked speech therapy, limiting visitors in hospitals) just because it has the appearance of reducing risk.

Does "thinking it through" mean "come to the same conclusion as I do" to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How quickly this thread has shifted from an apparently reasonable concern voiced by a parent to unsupported ranting about masks, deliberate mischaracterizations of comments, and “alternative facts”.

Here’s an important takeaway: Professionals, particularly those in clinical professions, will do their best to protect their families, their clients, and themselves in these uncertain, challenging and changing times. No amount of ranting on the part of people who want to politicize public health issues will change this. What it will change, is that professionals will increasingly limit their practices, retire, and leave their professions for other options — in the face of the selfish expectations that therapists and other health professionals put themselves at risk for the supposed needs (both actual and imagined) of those who seek their services. In many areas, well trained clinicians, particularly those who specialize in working with children, are at a premium. Look for that to get worse as the many risks associated with working in these types of professions far outweigh any possible benefits, and as the realities of capitalism far outweigh the kinds of values that often lead people to pursue these professions at considerable cost to themselves .

Ok so do you think OP can reasonably ask for an unmasked therapist for her child? Can a parent with a speech delayed child ask for an unmasked therapist? Autism? Or are we not allowed to because this fails to demonstrate our understanding that our kids are just bothers and “risks” and we need to accept whatever we get. (Nevermind that we are usually paying your fees out of pocket, or have a legal right to the services under IDEA.)

Yes, I think OP can reasonably ask for this. I also think that it’s more than reasonable for a therapist to refuse this request— for multiple reasons. While you are “allowed” to seek out services that you feel are appropriate, people providing those services are not only “allowed “ but ethically required to maintain environments that reduce health risks to others as well as to themselves. Clients don’t get to randomly dictate those standards. “Paying out of pocket” doesn’t change this.

While you MAY have “a legal right to services under IDEA”, there are limits to those “rights”. For practical purposes, since so many of the posters maintain that wanting to wear a mask when providing therapy is an anomaly, the simplest thing would be to find a therapist who doesn’t wear a mask. An individual patient has absolutely no right to services from a particular provider, and zero right to forcing an individual provider to alter their standards of care based on a particular client’s personal whims.

Precisely. There is autonomy in both directions at the individual level.

Your “autonomy” entails failing to do an important part of your job. As a therapist your autonomy does not entitle you to deliver bad services.

When the professional organization that provides certification for your specialty is at odds with an anonymous person on a discussion forum as to what constitutes best practices, I'm sorry to say the judgment of the DCUM poster does not hold the trump card.

Nobody is entitled to services from a particular provider, and you say this practice out of the norm. It should be simple to find another practitioner in line with your views. I have every faith you can and will, and I wish you well with it.

ASHA needs to reconsider its guidance and actually consider the obvious problems with masked speech therapy. And no its not simple to find new providers who unmask particularly if mask policies are set by the practice owners and not therapists.

Okay, so it's not just DC, but the surrounding states around DC, as well as some areas, but definitely not common. Okay.

It seems to be DC, MoCo, and SF now. The fact that the rest of the country has gone back to normal may unfortunately make it difficult for ASHA to take any action. Just being silent and letting everyone naturally return to normal is easier than ASHA having to take an honest look at the time period in which people were claiming that virtual school was fine and masked speech therapy totally OK too. That leaves us here having to fight to reestablish normality.

The local military base just went back to full masking. Covid is not ok right now.

Covid rates are down 15% nationwide, down 10% in DC today compared to 2 weeks ago.

Most people home test and don’t report.

Are they not reporting now more than they weren't reporting 2 weeks ago? Come on.