Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

Disagree. She was the only one being rational versus emotional. None of the siblings could do the job. Logan knew it, and she understood that in the end.

Completely disagree she changed her vote because she, in the end, couldn’t bear to see Ken get the job she felt should be hers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

I think the actress communicated a warmer underbelly, with fleeting moments of warmth toward Tom and even the desire to keep the child, not a particularly rational choice under the circumstances. The rapprochement with the mom also seemed nice, and genuine. The first time we saw her behave like an actual mother. Bullying father and absent mother informed her apparent incapacity for love, but I thought there was some evidence it could develop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

Disagree. She was the only one being rational versus emotional. None of the siblings could do the job. Logan knew it, and she understood that in the end.

Completely disagree she changed her vote because she, in the end, couldn’t bear to see Ken get the job she felt should be hers.

Didn't see that communicated anywhere in the dialogue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m amazed at the comments at “the men who betrayed her” - have you all forgotten her wedding night????

And maneuvering Kendall going to prison.

And Tom going to prison (she didn’t even react when Geri announced to the group that there would be no prison time! Her first comment was about strategy!)

Threatening Gerri’s career (and Roman) with his D@&k pics. She was willing to threaten another woman’s career to advance her own!!

It’s not like she was an innocent in all this - she betrayed other characters long before they started giving back in kind. She was willing all along to betray literally anyone who stood in her way - her brothers, her Dad, her husband, Geri - she in fact did betray everyone.

Agree with this, Tom detests Shiv and vice versa. Who is the silly poster claiming the marriage will be happy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

Disagree. She was the only one being rational versus emotional. None of the siblings could do the job. Logan knew it, and she understood that in the end.

Completely disagree she changed her vote because she, in the end, couldn’t bear to see Ken get the job she felt should be hers.

Didn't see that communicated anywhere in the dialogue.

Maybe you missed the scene were she “joked” with Roman about killing Ken. Probably the most significant scene of the finale.

[Anonymous]

All of the actors deserve Emmys. Also, how hard must it be for Snook and McFayden not to lapse into Aussie/British accents all the time!?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All of the actors deserve Emmys. Also, how hard must it be for Snook and McFayden not to lapse into Aussie/British accents all the time!?

of course its not hard, they're professional actors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

How so?

To me the ending shows how they are all miserable and always were and always will be. I think the truest part of the whole show was Roman saying “this is nothing, we are nothing” during the fight during the board meeting. None of them deserve it, none of them really even want it except to try and prove something, and it isn’t even something worth wanting anyway. It’s shallow and meaningless and it will not fill the hole in their hearts.

She’s the one who destroyed the relationship among the siblings and literally almost murdered her brother. And she remained in a marriage with a man who detests her.

What? I think Shiv is pretty terrible (I think they are all terrible) but I have no idea what you are talking about here.

The sibs have always had a screwed up relationship, thanks to their terrible parents. Shiv didn't "destroy" it -- they are selfish people who regularly screw each other over. Kendall and Roman boxed Shiv out when they became co-CEOs, then Kendall immediately started scheming behind Roman's back with Hugo. Roman was helping Logan behind Shiv and Kendall's back before Logan died. And so on. Shiv is no different from her siblings and is no more culpable for their messed up relationship than the others are.

How did Shiv "almost murder" her brother? Are you talking about when Shiv and Roman were talking about murdering Kendall? That was a joke.

And we have no idea what happens with Shiv and Tom. I don't even know that he detests her. They have a weird relationship but it's mutual -- she is arguably much worse to him than he is to her.

Just so odd to make Shiv seem like the one person who ruined an otherwise functional family. They are all bad! Their relationships suck and they all make terrible, selfish choices all the time.

[Anonymous]

Agree with Shiv "joking" about killing Kendall. Raise your hand if you didn't think for a moment it was possible...yep. Bueller. Case closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

Disagree. She was the only one being rational versus emotional. None of the siblings could do the job. Logan knew it, and she understood that in the end.

Completely disagree she changed her vote because she, in the end, couldn’t bear to see Ken get the job she felt should be hers.

Didn't see that communicated anywhere in the dialogue.

Maybe you missed the scene were she “joked” with Roman about killing Ken. Probably the most significant scene of the finale.

Maybe you missed the part where he lied about being involved in the waiter's death? That sealed it. When she said she loved him, but couldn't stomach him she was being honest. That was when Roman was done, too. He was also appalled and disgusted, then said the key "we're bullsh*t, we're nothing."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think Shiv is a far more complex character than either Kendall or Roman.

On a personal front, I think she loves Tom in the only way she knows how. Same with her baby. I took the ending to signify that Shiv is at least going to attempt a happy family for her baby. Maybe that’s way too optimistic.

I think she was the most competent Roy child - and could’ve been CEO - but her dad and then brothers dismissed her because she lacked experience and because sexism. Nobody had her back - not even her husband! - but in an alternative reality she could’ve taken over for Logan.

She did and therefore would have been a terrible CEO. None of the Roy children ever put in the work. They were only interested in the trappings and power. Entitled to the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

PP here and I don't know if Shiv has a capacity for love. I think it could go either way -- anyone can choose at any time to be a better person. Becoming a parent can change you. She could also just be a cold and distant mom like her own mother.

But my bigger point is that she didn't give up anything real in voting for the deal. It's not like she was going to have ANY power with Kendall at the helm. What does she have from him? A promise of some kind of role. Kendall is a drug addict who has abandoned his own children, who walked away from a dead waiter because it was easier than dealing with the consequences, who regularly plots against his family to amass more power for himself. Would YOU trust him?

She wasn't going to get anything either way. I think she genuinely just realized that Kendall would be a mess as CEO and while she hates Tom and he and Matsson screwed her over, probably the company would be better served by their leadership. I think it was a rational choice.

[Anonymous]

But the thing is, he did NOT lie about the awaited death.

[Anonymous]

I agree Shiv voted to tank the deal because she couldn't stomach seeing Kendall get the job.

It was not a rational decision at all. I don't buy she all of a sudden she would align with the man (Mattson) who just screwed her over. This was an emotional decision - she had this one last chance to control things and tank Kendall's chance to be CEO.

Shiv spitting in Kendalls drink game at the end says it all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But the thing is, he did NOT lie about the awaited death.

He did -- he told his siblings "I wasn't even there" which isn't true. He was in the car with him, he chose to run away from the scene. He didn't kill someone but he did something very gross and in the scene in the last ep, he absolutely lies to them to try and wiggle out of it. And Shiv knew, and she knows how easily he lies about things (including to himself) to get what he wants. She knows him.