Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shivs decision was of pure emotional spite - she could not stomach Kendall getting CEO and she was willing to tank it all to prevent it. She has shown herself to be solely motivated toward control and the CEO position without a care for the collateral in her wake including not caring a wit if that involves her brother or husband going to prison (!).

Tom makes sense and yes, he was willing to put in the work and take a roll being frontman for the development of his career - something most people do as they rise through the ranks. Shiv was never willing to do this - she expected someone like Mattson who had built a company to accept someone like her who has zero experience managing anything and is fueled by entitlement to position. She scoffed at any training under her Dad. She just expected to be given things without ever having to do any of the work. Mattson never took her seriously and used her ego to play her. She, along with her siblings, were never prepared to take on leadership roles.

I don't think it's that simple. Mattson and Tom betrayed her more than her siblings ever would. With Kendall in charge, she would be guaranteed a role in the company and at least some say. With the new regime, she gets nothing but proceeds from sale. I'm with PPs who think she genuinely believes Kendal would not do a good job.

^^not denying sibling rivalry wasn't a factor, just don't think it was the dominant one.

[Anonymous]

I’m amazed at the comments at “the men who betrayed her” - have you all forgotten her wedding night????

And maneuvering Kendall going to prison.

And Tom going to prison (she didn’t even react when Geri announced to the group that there would be no prison time! Her first comment was about strategy!)

Threatening Gerri’s career (and Roman) with his D@&k pics. She was willing to threaten another woman’s career to advance her own!!

It’s not like she was an innocent in all this - she betrayed other characters long before they started giving back in kind. She was willing all along to betray literally anyone who stood in her way - her brothers, her Dad, her husband, Geri - she in fact did betray everyone.

[Anonymous]

Matt son never betrayed Shiv because he never took her seriously in the first place - he played her from the beginning. He saw in Shiv a person so entitled, arrogant and willing to betray her family for power that she was easily identified as an opportunity to feed him information. He even chuckles a bit along the way at some of her outrageous comments about Tom and others.

[Anonymous]

Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

Agreed. Tom positioned himself to get what he wanted by working hard. Greg thinks as long as he’s in the room, he’ll get some table scraps.

Alexander Skarsgard said in an interview that Matsson noticed at the funeral that Tom wasn’t there because he was working. Everyone else is there gladhanding and playing the game, Tom was at work. That’s appealing — Tom will do what he’s told and work hard at it. No Roy sibling would do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

Tom's pretty stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

Agreed. Tom positioned himself to get what he wanted by working hard. Greg thinks as long as he’s in the room, he’ll get some table scraps.

Alexander Skarsgard said in an interview that Matsson noticed at the funeral that Tom wasn’t there because he was working. Everyone else is there gladhanding and playing the game, Tom was at work. That’s appealing — Tom will do what he’s told and work hard at it. No Roy sibling would do the same.

True. I think he was also assessing loyalties. Tom's absence also made it clear he wasn't that enmeshed in the family.

[Anonymous]

I was pulling for Kendall up until he lied about killing the waiter. He instantly turned into a petulant child. Roman knew they were all a pathetic joke at that moment. Shiv knew to cut and run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shiv sold out and is becoming her mom.

I don’t see this. She didn’t vote yes to the deal so that she could be taken care of by Tom. She’s a billionaire on her own and does not need Tom’s money, even his CEO money. After the GoJo deal, she’s even richer because Matsson is giving them above market price for shares.

I think she really just realized/remembered that Kendall would be a train wreck as CEO, plus started thinking about her baby and whatever semblance of family she has. She What would she gain, really, with Kendall as CEO? Spiting Tom (father of her child) and Matsson. But nothing really for her. She made a rational choice after toying with making an emotional choice. But there really are not a lot of Caroline parallels.

Shiv voted in her own self-interest. She saw/knew Kendall couldn't cut it and would also cut her out, and she knows Tom will always take her back.

Agree, she wanted to be loyal to her siblings but in the end realized Kendall was not cut out for the top job. Also agree it was a rational choice. Had it been emotional she would have stuck with her siblings, partly out of spite toward Matsson for screwing her over. Hard to feel remotely sorry for any of them given they'll be unfathomably rich from this deal. Love Roman's "we're nothing, we're bs" echoing Logan's "I love you but you're not serious people." As cruel as he was, he had sharp instincts and knew, sadly, none of them had what it took to be his successor. Still not sold on Tom for the top job though.

The “top” job Tom got as the watered down one of the newest subsidiary of Gojo, more of a mouthpiece for Mattson than ceo. The CEO position had Waystar not been acquired would have been infinitely more powerful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So now Shiv has no ownership and is married to a man who hates her and is her boss. Fun

I hate this ending for Shiv, it makes her the worst of the siblings.

How so?

To me the ending shows how they are all miserable and always were and always will be. I think the truest part of the whole show was Roman saying “this is nothing, we are nothing” during the fight during the board meeting. None of them deserve it, none of them really even want it except to try and prove something, and it isn’t even something worth wanting anyway. It’s shallow and meaningless and it will not fill the hole in their hearts.

She’s the one who destroyed the relationship among the siblings and literally almost murdered her brother. And she remained in a marriage with a man who detests her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Greg is just Tom Jr. always angling for the best deal for him.

Yes, but stupider.

Agreed. Tom positioned himself to get what he wanted by working hard. Greg thinks as long as he’s in the room, he’ll get some table scraps.

Alexander Skarsgard said in an interview that Matsson noticed at the funeral that Tom wasn’t there because he was working. Everyone else is there gladhanding and playing the game, Tom was at work. That’s appealing — Tom will do what he’s told and work hard at it. No Roy sibling would do the same.

The male Roy siblings had no interest in working for Mattson.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think Shiv changed her vote because she knew Ken couldn’t do it; she chose to be closest to power, and that is staying with Tom.

Maybe a mix of both, but I think she was sincere in saying Ken couldn't do it. And why would she need to stay close to power? The Gojo deal made her far richer than Tom the frontman will ever be.

Because they all know - plainly stated in the season 1 finale - that anyone can be super rich; they need the company to have power.

Sure, but what does mere proximity to power get her?

It’s mere proximity to power either way, folks.

Shiv had no role in Waystar beyond board member (and she’s still a board member, though not sure how that works with the acquisition).

Roman and Kendall boxed her out at CEO. Matsson dangled it and pulled it away. Sell, don’t sell, either way Shiv has no real power and is simply being promised things by men who have no history of ever coming through for her (sound familiar?).

There is no “win” for Shiv. I think she voted for the deal because it offers some closure. It’s over. She can stop pretending she and her sibs are going to run things together (they weren’t, it would be all Kendall, and she was right he’d be awful). The sale means it’s done.

I don’t know what to make of the Tom of it all. I don’t think she’s choosing him at all, much less choosing him so she can stay in proximity to power (she knows he’s an empty suit). I think she’ll probably wind up living on her own and doing her own thing whether they stay married or not.

Worst case, she’s her mom (rich, idle, annoying, bad mom). Best case, she starts her own comms company (she’s actually good at it, and very well connected in that world), makes an effort to be a better mom than hers was, and actually builds a little something for herself outside the world of Waystar and her family.

You really don’t see Shiv as the writers did, she lacks the capacity for love.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Shiv sold out and is becoming her mom.

I don’t see this. She didn’t vote yes to the deal so that she could be taken care of by Tom. She’s a billionaire on her own and does not need Tom’s money, even his CEO money. After the GoJo deal, she’s even richer because Matsson is giving them above market price for shares.

I think she really just realized/remembered that Kendall would be a train wreck as CEO, plus started thinking about her baby and whatever semblance of family she has. She What would she gain, really, with Kendall as CEO? Spiting Tom (father of her child) and Matsson. But nothing really for her. She made a rational choice after toying with making an emotional choice. But there really are not a lot of Caroline parallels.

Shiv voted in her own self-interest. She saw/knew Kendall couldn't cut it and would also cut her out, and she knows Tom will always take her back.

Agree, she wanted to be loyal to her siblings but in the end realized Kendall was not cut out for the top job. Also agree it was a rational choice. Had it been emotional she would have stuck with her siblings, partly out of spite toward Matsson for screwing her over. Hard to feel remotely sorry for any of them given they'll be unfathomably rich from this deal. Love Roman's "we're nothing, we're bs" echoing Logan's "I love you but you're not serious people." As cruel as he was, he had sharp instincts and knew, sadly, none of them had what it took to be his successor. Still not sold on Tom for the top job though.

The “top” job Tom got as the watered down one of the newest subsidiary of Gojo, more of a mouthpiece for Mattson than ceo. The CEO position had Waystar not been acquired would have been infinitely more powerful.

Good point. No one got more than a modest victory other than Mattson, and his victory was just luck since he could not count on Shiv after he conned her. Still, Tom really thought he'd be unemployed so it was enough of a victory to satisfy him.