Walz vs. Vance: VP Debate Oct 1 2024

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jamelle Bouie, Times columnist It’s a pretty straightforward verdict: Vance won this debate. It’s not hard to see why. He has spent most of his adult life selling himself to the wealthy, the powerful and the influential. He is as smooth and practiced as they come. He has no regard for the truth. He lies as easily as he breathes. We saw this throughout the debate. He told Americans that there are 20 million to 25 million “illegal aliens” — a lie. He told Americans that Mexico is responsible for the nation’s illegal gun problem — a lie. He told Americans that Trump actually tried to save the Affordable Care Act — a lie. If Vance had to sell the benefits of asbestos to win office, he would do it well and do it with a smile.

Is this the op-ed that declared Vance the winner that was actually posted on the NY Times website a week ago?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who doesn't want to be fact checked should be disqualified...what is the point otherwise? I want to believe my leaders whether or not I agree with them who wants to be gaslighted for 4 years?? I don't want to hear lies that make me happy. I want to hear the truth.

Politicians already get a bad rep for being slimy, smooth, not answering direct questions and outright lying. Vance acted like a exaggerated version of a "bad politician" trope last night. Vance was lying about obvious, proveable things (Donald Trump lost in 2020 (he did), Donald Trump peacefully transferred power in 2020 (he didn't), Donald Trump promoted ACA/Obamacare (he didn't), Haitian immigrant community in Springfield are illegals (they aren't), Vance never in favor of national abortion ban (he's on record and audio saying he would like an national abortion ban).

It was a crazy amount of lies on big, major, important significant things. How does Vance tell such enormous, egregious lies with such ...ease??

It's chilling.

Some people have no bs meter.

this is how we got Trump in the first place. Stupid voters

I think people don't care that Trump lies because they like him. He lies, but he is entertaining. Vance is not entertaining. He has clearly tried to be with his childless cat lady etc. comments, but he is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's amazing to me how people from each side choose to stubbornly defend the candidate they support. There was a clear winner yesterday night, but each side insists on claiming their candidate won. The debate, although quite interesting, did not change anyone's mind.

clear winner on what?

on style and delivery, vance was better.

on substance and accuracy, walz was better.

on big knock-out punches, there was only one. walz landed it in the final moment of the debate.

on bad behavior, there was only one instance, when vance whined to moderators after being fact-checked that he prepared for the debate assuming he wouldn't get fact-checked.

on first half of the debate (including opening), vance did better.

on second half of debate (including closing), walz did better.

on who was overall better according to pundits, most said a tie, some said vance.

on who was overall better according to regular people focus group, most said tie, some said walz.

on who won over more independents, walz.

You wish. You're dreaming

The CNN cross-tabs among independents are very interesting. They surveyed the same people before and after the debate:
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25182006/cnn-instant-poll-no-clear-winner-in-vp-debate-between-tim-walz-and-jd-vance.pdf

Takeaway: Walz underperformed expectations for Independents

Regardless of which presidential candidate you support, who do you think is likely to do a better job in
the upcoming vice-presidential debate? Walz 60%, Vance 40%

Regardless of which candidate you support, who did the better job in the debate? Walz 46%, Vance 54%

Takeaway: even if they think Vance did better in the debate, Independents still have increased their "favorable" views of Walz and he's viewed more favorably than Vance by a large margin for Independents.

Tim Walz - % "Favorable opinion"
Pre-debate: 40%
Post-debate: 58%

JD Vance - % "Favorable opinion"
Pre-debate: 18%
Post-debate: 32%

Takeaway: Walz is viewed as more relatable and representative of the America Independent voters want by strong margins

Regardless of which candidate you support, who is more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you?
Walz 47%, Vance 27%, Both 16%, Neither 10%

Regardless of which candidate you support, who more closely shares your vision for America?
Walz 46%, Vance 29%, Both 13%, Neither 12%

Takeaway: the VP debate will largely be inconsequential for Independents in casting their vote

Did tonight's debate:
Change your mind about whom to vote for - 1%
Make you reconsider, but not change your mind - 22%
Not affect your choice for president - 77%

Conclusion: JD had a better presentation style in the debate. But he was also facing very low expectations relative to Trump. The bar for a "good performance" was lower. Critically, Vance is less personally appealing to Independents relative to Walz. It also seems that Walz's lack of polish relative to Vance makes him appear more relatable and Independents are forgiving of that.

Yes. Vance was smooth. But it was clear that Walz has actual experience and knows how to get things done. Understands the principle of compromise. Walz was fluent in detail and honest about the challenges.

Vance was confident but substantively empty. It was notable that he did not refer to any of his work in the senate or was he has accomplished for his constituents. His lack of real world experience was apparent and not what you want for the VP of a guy as elderly and declining as Trump. We don’t need someone learning on the job.

- independent

+1 I’m not an independent, but it was obvious which one had 12 years in Congress and almost six years as governor vs. not even two years in a Congress that has accomplished virtually nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jamelle Bouie, Times columnist It’s a pretty straightforward verdict: Vance won this debate. It’s not hard to see why. He has spent most of his adult life selling himself to the wealthy, the powerful and the influential. He is as smooth and practiced as they come. He has no regard for the truth. He lies as easily as he breathes. We saw this throughout the debate. He told Americans that there are 20 million to 25 million “illegal aliens” — a lie. He told Americans that Mexico is responsible for the nation’s illegal gun problem — a lie. He told Americans that Trump actually tried to save the Affordable Care Act — a lie. If Vance had to sell the benefits of asbestos to win office, he would do it well and do it with a smile.

Is this the op-ed that declared Vance the winner that was actually posted on the NY Times website a week ago?

No, that was Douthat, not Bouie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who doesn't want to be fact checked should be disqualified...what is the point otherwise? I want to believe my leaders whether or not I agree with them who wants to be gaslighted for 4 years?? I don't want to hear lies that make me happy. I want to hear the truth.

Politicians already get a bad rep for being slimy, smooth, not answering direct questions and outright lying. Vance acted like a exaggerated version of a "bad politician" trope last night. Vance was lying about obvious, proveable things (Donald Trump lost in 2020 (he did), Donald Trump peacefully transferred power in 2020 (he didn't), Donald Trump promoted ACA/Obamacare (he didn't), Haitian immigrant community in Springfield are illegals (they aren't), Vance never in favor of national abortion ban (he's on record and audio saying he would like an national abortion ban).

It was a crazy amount of lies on big, major, important significant things. How does Vance tell such enormous, egregious lies with such ...ease??

It's chilling.

He’s a conniving sociopath. It’s interesting how hysterical Democrats are over Trump when Vance is the real evil on that ticket. He’s young too. He’s going to be a threat to this nation for a long time.

Vance scares me more than Trump. At least Trump is openly a horrible person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jamelle Bouie, Times columnist It’s a pretty straightforward verdict: Vance won this debate. It’s not hard to see why. He has spent most of his adult life selling himself to the wealthy, the powerful and the influential. He is as smooth and practiced as they come. He has no regard for the truth. He lies as easily as he breathes. We saw this throughout the debate. He told Americans that there are 20 million to 25 million “illegal aliens” — a lie. He told Americans that Mexico is responsible for the nation’s illegal gun problem — a lie. He told Americans that Trump actually tried to save the Affordable Care Act — a lie. If Vance had to sell the benefits of asbestos to win office, he would do it well and do it with a smile.

IMO this is a necessary skill for the leader of the U.S. (or VP) at this moment in time, given the events going on in the world. He is who I would want going into tense negotiations with world leaders, not Kamala or Walz (though Walz is very likable and I think he is great guy).

No. We don’t want people with no principles, no soul (not to mention zero managerial experience) as VP.

Yeah, or people who think that whole groups of people are utterly dispensable to serve his wealthy masters and weird beliefs. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Vance's bit about his friend who had an abortion and tells him it saved her life just said to me that Vance knows abortion is essential health care and a key part of a civilized society, and he doesn't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jamelle Bouie, Times columnist It’s a pretty straightforward verdict: Vance won this debate. It’s not hard to see why. He has spent most of his adult life selling himself to the wealthy, the powerful and the influential. He is as smooth and practiced as they come. He has no regard for the truth. He lies as easily as he breathes. We saw this throughout the debate. He told Americans that there are 20 million to 25 million “illegal aliens” — a lie. He told Americans that Mexico is responsible for the nation’s illegal gun problem — a lie. He told Americans that Trump actually tried to save the Affordable Care Act — a lie. If Vance had to sell the benefits of asbestos to win office, he would do it well and do it with a smile.

Is this the op-ed that declared Vance the winner that was actually posted on the NY Times website a week ago?

That was Ross Douthat's. He was also tweeting exstatically about Vance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vance's bit about his friend who had an abortion and tells him it saved her life just said to me that Vance knows abortion is essential health care and a key part of a civilized society, and he doesn't care.

Of course he doesn’t care, he doesn’t regard women as people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who doesn't want to be fact checked should be disqualified...what is the point otherwise? I want to believe my leaders whether or not I agree with them who wants to be gaslighted for 4 years?? I don't want to hear lies that make me happy. I want to hear the truth.

Politicians already get a bad rep for being slimy, smooth, not answering direct questions and outright lying. Vance acted like a exaggerated version of a "bad politician" trope last night. Vance was lying about obvious, proveable things (Donald Trump lost in 2020 (he did), Donald Trump peacefully transferred power in 2020 (he didn't), Donald Trump promoted ACA/Obamacare (he didn't), Haitian immigrant community in Springfield are illegals (they aren't), Vance never in favor of national abortion ban (he's on record and audio saying he would like an national abortion ban).

It was a crazy amount of lies on big, major, important significant things. How does Vance tell such enormous, egregious lies with such ...ease??

It's chilling.

He’s a conniving sociopath. It’s interesting how hysterical Democrats are over Trump when Vance is the real evil on that ticket. He’s young too. He’s going to be a threat to this nation for a long time.

Vance scares me more than Trump. At least Trump is openly a horrible person.

It’s interesting. I think the Trump campaign underestimated the visceral response most women have to Vance. Which is that he is not to be trusted. And his smooth debate performance just made him seem less trustworthy.

With the filtered photo of Vance with his contoured face and the MAGA trolling about how studly and educated he is, it just adds to the yuck factor.

We need to steer clear of Vance. Definite stranger danger vibes.

[Anonymous]

I thought this was interesting/terrifying:

“One other literally jawdropping moment last night was Vance’s assertion that immigrants smuggling guns in from Mexico were a central cause of gun violence in the US. As someone who has worked on immigration and border issues for 20 years I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. Guns are illegal in Mexico. There are no guns made in Mexico. The cartels get their guns here in the US, where half of all guns in the world reside. Our lax gun laws have helped make the cartels what they are today and have destabilized our neighbor to the South. The guns Vance described last night all came from here - not Mexico. It was an extraordinary and shocking invention, something way beyond a lie, another fascistic attempt to denigrate the other.” https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/p/gov-walz-earnestly-made-his-case

Either JD knows that full well and is lying to whip up more violence against Latino people or he’s too dumb to know this. Neither is good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Vance's bit about his friend who had an abortion and tells him it saved her life just said to me that Vance knows abortion is essential health care and a key part of a civilized society, and he doesn't care.

His abortion anecdote was the strangest part of the debate to me. It was clear he was trying to appear empathetic, but it fell flat. I didn't understand the point he was trying to make, especially given his party's (and his) views on the issue. It was a pathetic attempt at trying to win over women voters. He might have said all the right things last night, but there are years of interviews showing exactly how much he respects women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And the carousel of Republican respectability moves forward. Every year we get to hear about how the Republicans of yesteryear were actually the normal good ones and the current ones are "scary" "fascist" "chilling." It's been going on since W when I was a young teen.

Such utter BS. Yes, I loathed Bush, Jr. No, I NEVER feared that he would try to overthrow an election. He was able to express genuine sympathy at memorials. He didn’t call his opponents Tampons. If you can’t see the difference it’s because your lips are stuck to Trump’s @ss limiting your vision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who doesn't want to be fact checked should be disqualified...what is the point otherwise? I want to believe my leaders whether or not I agree with them who wants to be gaslighted for 4 years?? I don't want to hear lies that make me happy. I want to hear the truth.

Politicians already get a bad rep for being slimy, smooth, not answering direct questions and outright lying. Vance acted like a exaggerated version of a "bad politician" trope last night. Vance was lying about obvious, proveable things (Donald Trump lost in 2020 (he did), Donald Trump peacefully transferred power in 2020 (he didn't), Donald Trump promoted ACA/Obamacare (he didn't), Haitian immigrant community in Springfield are illegals (they aren't), Vance never in favor of national abortion ban (he's on record and audio saying he would like an national abortion ban).

It was a crazy amount of lies on big, major, important significant things. How does Vance tell such enormous, egregious lies with such ...ease??

It's chilling.

He’s a conniving sociopath. It’s interesting how hysterical Democrats are over Trump when Vance is the real evil on that ticket. He’s young too. He’s going to be a threat to this nation for a long time.

Vance scares me more than Trump. At least Trump is openly a horrible person.

It’s interesting. I think the Trump campaign underestimated the visceral response most women have to Vance. Which is that he is not to be trusted. And his smooth debate performance just made him seem less trustworthy.

With the filtered photo of Vance with his contoured face and the MAGA trolling about how studly and educated he is, it just adds to the yuck factor.

We need to steer clear of Vance. Definite stranger danger vibes.

I'm the PP who said Vance is scarier than Trump. I was discussing this with a group of female friends (I'm a woman) over the weekend. We all said Vance gives off the vibe of a guy we learned not to trust when we were younger. I don't think a group of men would pick up on the same kind of vibe. And of course, he's done himself no favors with how he's spoken about women throughout his career.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who doesn't want to be fact checked should be disqualified...what is the point otherwise? I want to believe my leaders whether or not I agree with them who wants to be gaslighted for 4 years?? I don't want to hear lies that make me happy. I want to hear the truth.

Politicians already get a bad rep for being slimy, smooth, not answering direct questions and outright lying. Vance acted like a exaggerated version of a "bad politician" trope last night. Vance was lying about obvious, proveable things (Donald Trump lost in 2020 (he did), Donald Trump peacefully transferred power in 2020 (he didn't), Donald Trump promoted ACA/Obamacare (he didn't), Haitian immigrant community in Springfield are illegals (they aren't), Vance never in favor of national abortion ban (he's on record and audio saying he would like an national abortion ban).

It was a crazy amount of lies on big, major, important significant things. How does Vance tell such enormous, egregious lies with such ...ease??

It's chilling.

He’s a conniving sociopath. It’s interesting how hysterical Democrats are over Trump when Vance is the real evil on that ticket. He’s young too. He’s going to be a threat to this nation for a long time.

Vance scares me more than Trump. At least Trump is openly a horrible person.

It’s interesting. I think the Trump campaign underestimated the visceral response most women have to Vance. Which is that he is not to be trusted. And his smooth debate performance just made him seem less trustworthy.

With the filtered photo of Vance with his contoured face and the MAGA trolling about how studly and educated he is, it just adds to the yuck factor.

We need to steer clear of Vance. Definite stranger danger vibes.

Yes, the way Vance was side eyeing the camera was super creepy. I think he was trying to pretend like he was listening to Walz and not turn away from the camera but it gave the impression that he was trying to stare at a woman and pretend he was doing something else.

He’s the college creeper in the back of the lecture hall who you can feel leering at you.