J.K. Rowling’s post on trans-identity and modern misogyny

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why she keeps wading into this particular issue. It’s coming across as a hangup or fixation. Does she not have 400 things to do?

She seems to think that the growing acceptance of trans rights is negatively affecting biological women’s place in society and also her involvement with domestic and abuse charities. Though I’m less clear on how that works for the second one.

https://www.philanthropy-impact.org/inspiration/personal-stories/jk-rowling-obe

Time for the older women to have several seats if they can't understand intersectional is the way things are now.

It seems that it's the younger feminists who don't understand that.

Intersectional means seeing the differences and advocating for what each group needs. It means acknowledging that black women and latina women and gay women and transgendered women all need specific advocacy and that we lift one another up in support of that advocacy. It SHOULD mean acknowledging the realities of biological sex and calling them what they are, women's issues.

In theory, but in practice it usually means telling all white women and/or light-skinned women to shut up, denigrating their experiences by calling them all privileged and mocking them for any hardships they experiences, and sometimes using antisemitic tropes and language to denigrate second-wave feminists, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I don't think the issue is about bathroom as much as it is safe space. JK Rowling is a sexual and domestic abuse servivor and supports shelters for women who have been abused. Her concern is that under Scottish law a man can show up and state they are a women no matter if the person has not had any surgery, not taking hormones, not doing anything to identify as a women but merely state they are a woman. Men historically have oppressed women, she is concerned safe spaces for women are being taken away.

This is a specious argument as trans individuals are MULTIPLE times more likely to experience violence for being trans than they are to inflict it.

So in Vancouver, a rape crisis center had only women volunteers answer calls to their hotline. They understood that many women would not feel safe talking to a man about their experiences being raped. A trans woman wanted to be one of those volunteers. The center refused, as she still would sound male on the phone. She was offered other volunteer opportunities that would not put her in contact with rape victims, but she was not happy with that, sued the center, and got them defunded for only serving and working with people who are born women. These are the outcomes of laws that let people legally change their gender identity. I think it’s a reasonable thing to be concerned about these sorts of outcomes. Do you disagree with that?

I think a) this is an incredibly rare circumstance that b) has nothing to do with Jo’s garbage and c) discrimination is discrimination. A woman with a deep voice can’t work there?

HE IS NOT A WOMAN

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I don't think the issue is about bathroom as much as it is safe space. JK Rowling is a sexual and domestic abuse servivor and supports shelters for women who have been abused. Her concern is that under Scottish law a man can show up and state they are a women no matter if the person has not had any surgery, not taking hormones, not doing anything to identify as a women but merely state they are a woman. Men historically have oppressed women, she is concerned safe spaces for women are being taken away.

This is a specious argument as trans individuals are MULTIPLE times more likely to experience violence for being trans than they are to inflict it.

So in Vancouver, a rape crisis center had only women volunteers answer calls to their hotline. They understood that many women would not feel safe talking to a man about their experiences being raped. A trans woman wanted to be one of those volunteers. The center refused, as she still would sound male on the phone. She was offered other volunteer opportunities that would not put her in contact with rape victims, but she was not happy with that, sued the center, and got them defunded for only serving and working with people who are born women. These are the outcomes of laws that let people legally change their gender identity. I think it’s a reasonable thing to be concerned about these sorts of outcomes. Do you disagree with that?

I think a) this is an incredibly rare circumstance that b) has nothing to do with Jo’s garbage and c) discrimination is discrimination. A woman with a deep voice can’t work there?

HE IS NOT A WOMAN

FOCK YOU

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why she keeps wading into this particular issue. It’s coming across as a hangup or fixation. Does she not have 400 things to do?

She seems to think that the growing acceptance of trans rights is negatively affecting biological women’s place in society and also her involvement with domestic and abuse charities. Though I’m less clear on how that works for the second one.

https://www.philanthropy-impact.org/inspiration/personal-stories/jk-rowling-obe

Time for the older women to have several seats if they can't understand intersectional is the way things are now.

It seems that it's the younger feminists who don't understand that.

Intersectional means seeing the differences and advocating for what each group needs. It means acknowledging that black women and latina women and gay women and transgendered women all need specific advocacy and that we lift one another up in support of that advocacy. It SHOULD mean acknowledging the realities of biological sex and calling them what they are, women's issues.

In theory, but in practice it usually means telling all white women and/or light-skinned women to shut up, denigrating their experiences by calling them all privileged and mocking them for any hardships they experiences, and sometimes using antisemitic tropes and language to denigrate second-wave feminists, etc.

I am the PP. I agree with you, sorry if that was unclear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain to me how anyone other than a biogenetic woman with an X chromosome can me strays?

This is going to far if someone tries to argue that.

People who menstruate include women and trans men. That wasn't difficult or confusing.

In other words, women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain to me how anyone other than a biogenetic woman with an X chromosome can me strays?

This is going to far if someone tries to argue that.

People who menstruate include women and trans men. That wasn't difficult or confusing.

Trans men are biogenetic women with only x chromosomes. You've just reiterated the PP's point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I don't think the issue is about bathroom as much as it is safe space. JK Rowling is a sexual and domestic abuse servivor and supports shelters for women who have been abused. Her concern is that under Scottish law a man can show up and state they are a women no matter if the person has not had any surgery, not taking hormones, not doing anything to identify as a women but merely state they are a woman. Men historically have oppressed women, she is concerned safe spaces for women are being taken away.

This is a specious argument as trans individuals are MULTIPLE times more likely to experience violence for being trans than they are to inflict it.

So in Vancouver, a rape crisis center had only women volunteers answer calls to their hotline. They understood that many women would not feel safe talking to a man about their experiences being raped. A trans woman wanted to be one of those volunteers. The center refused, as she still would sound male on the phone. She was offered other volunteer opportunities that would not put her in contact with rape victims, but she was not happy with that, sued the center, and got them defunded for only serving and working with people who are born women. These are the outcomes of laws that let people legally change their gender identity. I think it’s a reasonable thing to be concerned about these sorts of outcomes. Do you disagree with that?

I think a) this is an incredibly rare circumstance that b) has nothing to do with Jo’s garbage and c) discrimination is discrimination. A woman with a deep voice can’t work there?

This is the problem.

In the Vancouver Rape Relief case it wasn’t even about employment! It was about one trans woman (who presented as male) wanting to volunteer directly with rape victims. The shelter’s mission is to create a safe space for women and they want female-only volunteers for that reason. I think only the most asinine of people would force a rape victim to tell her story to someone who looks like a man and triggers fear under the banner of not discriminating against trans-women. If you’re going that route, isn’t this discrimination against men? Shouldn’t they have the right to volunteer in women’s shelters too?

It’s exactly stuff like this that JK Rowling was talking about when she said the trans movement has the potential to destroy safe spaces for biological women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone else read it? It’s certainly well-thought out. She essentially says she’s spent 3 years studying the concept of trans identity and while she supports it -

a) she doesn’t think the rights of women who sexually identify as female should be diminished,

b) young adults (under 18) should not be allowed gender reassignment surgery and even adults need to have more rigorous standards for completion since its irreversible, and

c) trans being a identity more than a sexuality is subject to groupthink which is why it’s exploded in culture recently.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

To me, this is the equivalent of All Lives Matter. By promoting awareness of and requesting protection for trans women, no one is saying that cis women are worth any less.

Except when it comes to demanding things that might hurt natural born women such as trans women competing in female sports or going into female bathrooms.

Well, cis girls and women just need to accept that. If cis girls lose to trans girls in women's sports, then they need to be good losers. Not bad losers.

Troll

I'm not a troll, I'm stating the only reasonable position to take wrt women's sports and trans women. Some people also think it's problematic, but what's a better alternative? Barring trans athletes, imposing a transition period hiatus, something else? All problematic.

If you are a trans woman, then you are a biological man who has chosen to become a woman and you have your Y DNA and years of male hormones that have shaped your physique. Therefore you are genetically and physically different from biological women. Trans women could always choose to compete against the gender they were born as, or we can create a separate category for trans women.

That is the whole point. Trans women don’t need a whole separate category! They are women too. A trans woman does not diminish any other woman’s womanhood or the struggles she has faced as a woman. There is no need to be exclusionary of trans women and “other” them by demanding they be in their own category. And that is exactly what JKR does when she pops up with this crap every 6 months- claims she’s some great defender of lesbians and women’s rights or whatever by excluding trans women from the narrative. Trans women are women.

But clearly MtoF trans are "other" when it comes to sporting events because they are genetically male and will perform differently from those who are genetically female. And women have been "othered" since forever, so your argument actually holds no weight when you say trans women shouldn't be "othered". If gender and sex aren't binary, we should have more categories, not fewer.

My argument is trans women are women. JKR argues the opposite.

Trans women are genetic males, though. The root of the problem seems to be in conflating biological sex with gender and demanding that trans women are exactly the same as all women. Clearly some things are bio-specific and it doesn't help anyone to pretend otherwise.

This.

I am a scientist. You can’t overlook facts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
In the Vancouver Rape Relief case it wasn’t even about employment! It was about one trans woman (who presented as male) wanting to volunteer directly with rape victims. The shelter’s mission is to create a safe space for women and they want female-only volunteers for that reason. I think only the most asinine of people would force a rape victim to tell her story to someone who looks like a man and triggers fear under the banner of not discriminating against trans-women. If you’re going that route, isn’t this discrimination against men? Shouldn’t they have the right to volunteer in women’s shelters too?

It’s exactly stuff like this that JK Rowling was talking about when she said the trans movement has the potential to destroy safe spaces for biological women.

Wouldn't it be helpful to have a trans woman when other trans women called to report their sexual assaults? It's depressingly common.

Also, did the Vancouver center expect indigenous volunteers to sound nonindigenous, immigrants to speak without a definable accent, etc? Surely there were callers who wouldn't feel comfortable speaking to members of certain groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

How exactly do you think DV shelters work? Do you think anyone can just turn up and walk in?

I think domestic violence shelters have a lot of discretion — however, there’s already been one example where a trans woman (who sounded and presented as male) was not allowed to volunteer with rape victims because it made them feel uncomfortable. The trans woman sued and succeed in shutting down the shelter. This literally “destroyed” a safe space for women.

If you think other shelters haven’t taken notice, you are delusional. For a violent man wanting to locate his wife, the trans exception provides very easy access to formerly safe spaces.

I would really like the PP to provide a link to that story before people just go restating her comments as fact.

Here you go:

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/

Kimberly Nixon vs. Vancouver Rape Relief

A trans woman sued the Vancouver Rape Relief because she wasn’t allowed to volunteer directly with rape victims — she refused to settle or accept other forms of volunteering. This tied up their efforts and resources for over a decade of defending themselves and defending female-only safe spaces for battered and abused women. In 2020 they were denied funding by the city of Vancouver directly because of their stance that a female only space was critical in making battered women feel safe.

One more thing that’s relevant: The shelter did provide help for trans women as well as cis-women. It’s just that the vast majority of their clients were biological women. Their mission was to provide a safe space for women and they recognized (as most advocates do) that it can be very triggering and frightening to be around men immediately after a woman has been attacked by a man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand why she keeps wading into this particular issue. It’s coming across as a hangup or fixation. Does she not have 400 things to do?

She seems to think that the growing acceptance of trans rights is negatively affecting biological women’s place in society and also her involvement with domestic and abuse charities. Though I’m less clear on how that works for the second one.

https://www.philanthropy-impact.org/inspiration/personal-stories/jk-rowling-obe

Time for the older women to have several seats if they can't understand intersectional is the way things are now.

It seems that it's the younger feminists who don't understand that.

Intersectional means seeing the differences and advocating for what each group needs. It means acknowledging that black women and latina women and gay women and transgendered women all need specific advocacy and that we lift one another up in support of that advocacy. It SHOULD mean acknowledging the realities of biological sex and calling them what they are, women's issues.

In theory, but in practice it usually means telling all white women and/or light-skinned women to shut up, denigrating their experiences by calling them all privileged and mocking them for any hardships they experiences, and sometimes using antisemitic tropes and language to denigrate second-wave feminists, etc.

No. It means middle aged white women aren’t centered in all discussions on feminism which I realize is an issue for many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does giving Trans women rights diminish biological women's rights?

We're all in the same group as "female." I don't care if trans women want to join. The more the merrier.

THIS

It doesn't. I think JKR is dumb to make this about the bathrooms. I don't care about trans people advocating for rights at all. They should! They should absolutely do that and feminists should support them as an intersectional partner for advocating for equality.

Changing language so women don't exist is the issue. And it is an issue that trans people would I assume not like either, as they would then not have language to describe their own vision of their gender.

I think you would do well to reframe your analysis here. No one is changing language so that women don't exist. Women exist, but not everyone who menstruates is a woman, and not all women menstruate.

I'm using the menstruation example because it is what set Rowling off this time. You can say that women exist, and you can say that some men menstruate. Neither invalidates the other.

You can also say women menstruate, just like JKR did. It is a true statement and doesn't negate the fact that some trans men menstruate, or that some women don't menstruate. Saying that women menstruate shouldn't be controversial. just like saying that women get breast cancer shouldn't be controversial and doesn't negate the fact that men can get it too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain to me how anyone other than a biogenetic woman with an X chromosome can me strays?

This is going to far if someone tries to argue that.

People who menstruate include women and trans men. That wasn't difficult or confusing.

In other words, women.

You do realize you have a choice, right? You don't have to be so vile and hateful. You could just choose to be kind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
In the Vancouver Rape Relief case it wasn’t even about employment! It was about one trans woman (who presented as male) wanting to volunteer directly with rape victims. The shelter’s mission is to create a safe space for women and they want female-only volunteers for that reason. I think only the most asinine of people would force a rape victim to tell her story to someone who looks like a man and triggers fear under the banner of not discriminating against trans-women. If you’re going that route, isn’t this discrimination against men? Shouldn’t they have the right to volunteer in women’s shelters too?

It’s exactly stuff like this that JK Rowling was talking about when she said the trans movement has the potential to destroy safe spaces for biological women.

Wouldn't it be helpful to have a trans woman when other trans women called to report their sexual assaults? It's depressingly common.

Also, did the Vancouver center expect indigenous volunteers to sound nonindigenous, immigrants to speak without a definable accent, etc? Surely there were callers who wouldn't feel comfortable speaking to members of certain groups.

This was a shelter that served rape victims.

The vast majority of victims are biological women and having to tell their story to someone who looks like a man can be very frightening and triggering. I know if I had just been raped and I called a rape crisis center, I would not want to talk to someone who sounded like a man.

It is actually quite disturbing that so many people are willing to place the burden of making others comfortable on the most victimized people in our society in their most vulnerable moments. No, I do not think a woman who is running from her rapist should have to talk to someone who looks like a man to prove how woke the organization is. For once, the victim’s rights should take precedence. I cannot believe this has to be explained to people!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds unlikely to you because you’ve never dealt with abusive men.

Women trying to get out of abusive relationships are in a lot of danger. It doesn’t take much imagination to think of scenarios where the abuser could get a friend to go find his wife in a shelter and use the trans-label as a cover. This is exactly what JK Rowling was talking about when she said this destroys safe spaces for women.

How exactly do you think DV shelters work? Do you think anyone can just turn up and walk in?

I think domestic violence shelters have a lot of discretion — however, there’s already been one example where a trans woman (who sounded and presented as male) was not allowed to volunteer with rape victims because it made them feel uncomfortable. The trans woman sued and succeed in shutting down the shelter. This literally “destroyed” a safe space for women.

If you think other shelters haven’t taken notice, you are delusional. For a violent man wanting to locate his wife, the trans exception provides very easy access to formerly safe spaces.

I would really like the PP to provide a link to that story before people just go restating her comments as fact.

Here you go:

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2012/05/14/rape-relief-v-nixon-transphobia-and-the-value-of-women-only-space-an-interview-with-lee-lakeman/

Kimberly Nixon vs. Vancouver Rape Relief

A trans woman sued the Vancouver Rape Relief because she wasn’t allowed to volunteer directly with rape victims — she refused to settle or accept other forms of volunteering. This tied up their efforts and resources for over a decade of defending themselves and defending female-only safe spaces for battered and abused women. In 2020 they were denied funding by the city of Vancouver directly because of their stance that a female only space was critical in making battered women feel safe.

One more thing that’s relevant: The shelter did provide help for trans women as well as cis-women. It’s just that the vast majority of their clients were biological women. Their mission was to provide a safe space for women and they recognized (as most advocates do) that it can be very triggering and frightening to be around men immediately after a woman has been attacked by a man.

It was blatant discrimination. The court upheld it was. If you google Kimberly Nixon she would never be mistaken for a man. It’s horrible that a rape crisis center told a transgender woman she was going to trigger rape victims.