Jews and Germans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

we are still waiting for Russia to do the same.
crimes commited by the partsana have gone unpunished

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Would it pacify me? Why would I need to be pacified? I believe that Israel has a right to exist.

God also made the Palestinians
They would not even exist without God allowing it. And God loves them too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Would it pacify me? Why would I need to be pacified? I believe that Israel has a right to exist.

God also made the Palestinians
They would not even exist without God allowing it. And God loves them too

I agree that the Palestinians also have a right to a country. Have you heard of the idea of the two-state solution?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Would it pacify me? Why would I need to be pacified? I believe that Israel has a right to exist.

God also made the Palestinians
They would not even exist without God allowing it. And God loves them too

This feud has been going on for 5000 years with the Palestinians and Israelis being the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac respectively. God loves the Jews and the Palestinians.

The original Hatfields and McCoys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was a different time and Britain still had much of its colonial empire. Britain "ceded control" of Palestine to the UN because Pakestine had little economic value (no oil) and Britain did not want to absorb the Jewish refugees. Basically zbritain didn't care what happened to the Palestinians

Britain was in the process of giving up the vast majority of it's colonies (including it's crown jewel of India) and Palestine was part of that process. Even if it had had more natural resources, it would have ceded control to the UN. Imperialism had greatly fallen out of favor with the culture and, perhaps more importantly, it no longer had the economic resources necessary to administer overseas colonies.

I will grant you the point that Britain didn't give a fig as to what happened to the Palestinians though. Nor did they relish the idea of absorbing Jewish refugees from the war. Still very xenophobic at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
And so did the jews when they were displaced from Israel 2000 years ago. I don't ever hear anyone bemoaning their fate though.

At some point there has to be a statute of limitations.

Why? There isn't for murder.

Should it be 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? 500 years? 5000 years?

The point is that life is not black and white, but people sure love to act like it is. The truth is always, always, in the middle.

The truth is not always in the middle. For example, the Holocaust happened. If you get one person saying that the Holocaust happened, and another person saying that the Holocaust didn't happen, is the truth that the Holocaust kinda sorta happened?

I don't know what the statute of limitations should be, but it should be shorter than what the Romans (who no longer exist) and Jews (to whom a lot has happened since) did in the area around Jerusalem 2,000 years ago.

For what it's worth, I also don't have much patience with arguments based on a battle that happened in 1389.

Of course the truth is not in the middle when you are talking about macro events like the holocaust, but when you're talking about whether the average German was evil, for example, it is most definitely in the middle. I'll tell you why a statute of limitations doesn't make any sense. Don't you think that the history of a people should be taken in to account when judging how some subset of those people act in the future? Isn't that what the US is all about - the revolution is and always will be at the core of who we are. Not to take history in to account, in my opinion, is short-sighted. Context, and history, matter. People make broad generalizations about Israel on the basis of certain events - like admittedly horrendous actions including the continued expansion of settlements in the west bank - but forget that Israel did not set out to conquer the West Bank, or the Golan or East Jerusalem, but ended up doing so because it was attacked. What would you say if Israel withdrew entirely from the West Bank and East Jerusalem, put up a wall, and said to the rest of the Middle, please just leave me alone? Would that do it?

Yes, of course one must take history into account. But not ancient history. What the Romans and Jews did 2,000 years ago is ancient history. What King Solomon did in Jerusalem 3,000 years ago is ancient history. Real actual living people take priority.

Of course real actual living people take priority, but motivation can't be viewed in a vacuum. Based on your premise, does what the european settlers did to the native americans matter anymore since it was multiple hundreds of years ago? Where do you draw the line? The point is that all context matters. In any event, at least in the case of the Jews, it's not like what happened 2000 years ago is the only injustice.

Anyway, answer my last question. What if the Israelis did what everyone seems to want them to do - and frankly I as a Jew living in the diaspora desperately want them to do - and give up all of the west bank and east jerusalem. Do you think that would pacify the world? To me, that's the 64 million dollar question. I wish I knew the answer.

I personally think yes. Worth a try anyway. But they have to be genuinely committed to trying and so far they haven't been. Too much distrust of Hamas, not that I blame them.

As an outsider looking on, it's pretty easy to see what needs to be done. Israel needs to give up land, allow Palestinians to work in Jerusalem, and recognize Palestine's right to exist. Palestine needs to STOP allying with countries and terrorist organizations openly hostile to Israel. What needs to happen first is more of a chicken and egg question. Of course when you're talking about blood feuds, I realize it's not so abstract and cut and dried. However, you'd think there'd come a point where all or most of the participants just become sick to death of the fighting and killing. What reasonable person wants to live in a protracted state of fear and violence??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

[Anonymous]

Israel has the full resources of the United States behind it as an ally. What does Palestine have unless it allies itself with rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries. If you took away the support from both powerful rich entities, the two state solution would have a better chance Get rid of AIPAC and Hezbollah and there could be a chance.
Hold your breath on that one, especially AIPAC

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Israel has the full resources of the United States behind it as an ally. What does Palestine have unless it allies itself with rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries. If you took away the support from both powerful rich entities, the two state solution would have a better chance Get rid of AIPAC and Hezbollah and there could be a chance.
Hold your breath on that one, especially AIPAC

It's tricky because American Jews make up an affluent and powerful political lobby. But it would probably help matters if the US tried to be more neutral and started giving more aid to Palestine. Hard to do though when many Jews would consider that a betrayal of the worst sort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has the full resources of the United States behind it as an ally. What does Palestine have unless it allies itself with rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries. If you took away the support from both powerful rich entities, the two state solution would have a better chance Get rid of AIPAC and Hezbollah and there could be a chance.
Hold your breath on that one, especially AIPAC

It's tricky because American Jews make up an affluent and powerful political lobby. But it would probably help matters if the US tried to be more neutral and started giving more aid to Palestine. Hard to do though when many Jews would consider that a betrayal of the worst sort.

Is America run that religion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Would it pacify me? Why would I need to be pacified? I believe that Israel has a right to exist.

God also made the Palestinians
They would not even exist without God allowing it. And God loves them too

I agree that the Palestinians also have a right to a country. Have you heard of the idea of the two-state solution?

no
that has been tried and failed and will not happen
learn to love your neighbor. That is what religion teaches. No God teaches that you have a right to hurt someone. Think of the Palestinians as a gift. Iron sharpens iron. They were not born as a result of an accident but for a purpose, just like every other creature under the sun

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Would it pacify me? Why would I need to be pacified? I believe that Israel has a right to exist.

God also made the Palestinians
They would not even exist without God allowing it. And God loves them too

I agree that the Palestinians also have a right to a country. Have you heard of the idea of the two-state solution?

no
that has been tried and failed and will not happen
learn to love your neighbor. That is what religion teaches. No God teaches that you have a right to hurt someone. Think of the Palestinians as a gift. Iron sharpens iron. They were not born as a result of an accident but for a purpose, just like every other creature under the sun

What? When?

(I wonder if Palestinians would like to be thought of as a gift from God for the benefit of Israeli Jews.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I used to live in Germany. The Germans, particularly the former West German government, have generally confronted the past. By contrast, the Austrians for years have pretended that they were a conquered victim nation with no responsibility for their Nazi past. There's a saying that the Austrians have spent decades convinvg the world that Hitler was a German and Beethoven was an Austrian.

Japan is the worst when it comes to stuff like this. Events like the Rape of Nanking and atrocities committed during the occupation of Korea are routinely glossed over or not mentioned at all. Korea is still waiting on an official apology from Japan.

China finally got an acknowledgement from Japan when they admitted that they did indeed nab beach goers and experiment on them. Westerners don't care. They don't care what Japan has done to China, Korea, or the Philippines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel has the full resources of the United States behind it as an ally. What does Palestine have unless it allies itself with rich and powerful Middle Eastern countries. If you took away the support from both powerful rich entities, the two state solution would have a better chance Get rid of AIPAC and Hezbollah and there could be a chance.
Hold your breath on that one, especially AIPAC

It's tricky because American Jews make up an affluent and powerful political lobby. But it would probably help matters if the US tried to be more neutral and started giving more aid to Palestine. Hard to do though when many Jews would consider that a betrayal of the worst sort.

Is America run that religion?

Don't you remember Obama tying himself up in knots during the Florida primary?

[Anonymous]

Someone up thread mentioned that Germans no longer sing "Deutschland uber alles." Das Deutchlandlied is still the German national anthem, as it has been since 1922. While the Nazis used the first stanza of the song as the official anthem and today the official anthem is the third stanza, the song itself was introduced is not a chauvinistic anthem, but a call for unity. Germany, as anyone who has taken a World History course should know, was born out of the various German principalities and states of the Holy Roman Empire, excluding Austria. The lyrics were written in 1841, a few years before the revolutions of 1848, and called for all Germans to unite in a "Germany over others," meaning a unified German state rather than the hodgepodge of principalities that existed until the declaration of the German Empire in 1870.

In Gore Vidal's Lincoln, someone comments that Lincoln did very much for the United States what Bismarck was doing for Germany, creating an "is' from an "are."