CHARTERS MAY MERGE AT WALTER REED (The DC International School, IB Diploma Programme)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

An IBO program by definition does ability tracking, with the IB degree at the end - the highest level - so we're not particularly worried but happy there is a public middle/high school option that we can consider over private school. We're not interested in Basis or Latin.

I had no idea the senior guidance counselor was from Holyoke! I'll be just as happy if DC attends Amherst, Williams, Swathmore, etc. over the Ivies, DH and I attended...

Latin does ability tracking in HS, not in MS, other than for algebra, which helps drive out most of the high-SES families somewhere between 6th and 9th grades. Anybody who disputes this need only look at the percentage of white kids, over a third for MS and around 10% for HS, although the figure is rising.

The Ivies take 6-10% of applicants (other than Cornell, 18%, the only public-private school among them), the "Little Ivies" take around 15%, pretty much the same applicant pool. Holyoke takes closer to 40%. I interview Metro area applicants for my Little Ivy and hardly anybody gets in from DCPS, while PS kids from MoCo and Fairfax commonly do. They usually come up through ES and MS G/T programs and have much higher AP and SAT test scores than even the best DCPS kids, including white kids. A good third of them earn the full IB diploma, which is no longer remarkable. Top schools now look at the total IB score more than the diploma and 40+ isn't uncommon.

If DCI really does offer several levels for each subject, terrific, but since no other MS in the city does, and the charter board has offered stiff resistance to any sort of selective admissions, even for a sensible, non-race or class-based reason (bilingualism), it's tough to argue with the skeptics. Even Deal doesn't track much yet.

Why would the charter board allow extensive ability grouping but not selective admissions? In that case, wouldn't the dreaded elitism and cherry-picking simply emerge within the school (with massive over-representation of high-SES families in upper echelon courses)? That doesn't sound politically tenable, no matter how many high-SES families wind up enrolling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An IBO program by definition does ability tracking, with the IB degree at the end - the highest level - so we're not particularly worried but happy there is a public middle/high school option that we can consider over private school. We're not interested in Basis or Latin.

I had no idea the senior guidance counselor was from Holyoke! I'll be just as happy if DC attends Amherst, Williams, Swathmore, etc. over the Ivies, DH and I attended...

Latin does ability tracking in HS, not in MS, other than for algebra, which helps drive out most of the high-SES families somewhere between 6th and 9th grades. Anybody who disputes this need only look at the percentage of white kids, over a third for MS and around 10% for HS, although the figure is rising.

The Ivies take 6-10% of applicants (other than Cornell, 18%, the only public-private school among them), the "Little Ivies" take around 15%, pretty much the same applicant pool. Holyoke takes closer to 40%. I interview Metro area applicants for my Little Ivy and hardly anybody gets in from DCPS, while PS kids from MoCo and Fairfax commonly do. They usually come up through ES and MS G/T programs and have much higher AP and SAT test scores than even the best DCPS kids, including white kids. A good third of them earn the full IB diploma, which is no longer remarkable. Top schools now look at the total IB score more than the diploma and 40+ isn't uncommon.

If DCI really does offer several levels for each subject, terrific, but since no other MS in the city does, and the charter board has offered stiff resistance to any sort of selective admissions, even for a sensible, non-race or class-based reason (bilingualism), it's tough to argue with the skeptics. Even Deal doesn't track much yet.

Why would the charter board allow extensive ability grouping but not selective admissions? In that case, wouldn't the dreaded elitism and cherry-picking simply emerge within the school (with massive over-representation of high-SES families in upper echelon courses)? That doesn't sound politically tenable, no matter how many high-SES families wind up enrolling.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Anonymous]

I'm also concerned about challenge at DCI, if they get their charter (looks like it). I say this having inteviewed dozens of DCPS applicants for MIT without seeing one admitted, or even wait listed.

If you're serious about admissions to colleges admitting 15% of applicants (including the military academies) or fewer for your DC, you might want to find and talk to somebody like me, or the PP from the Little Ivy. DCPS teachers, parents, and guidance counselors love to tell seniors at SWW, Wilson. Banneker, and now the Latin kids, that they're just as well prepared as top students at DC privates and suburban magnets, when they aren't. Not even close, although this is slowly changing, particularly at Wilson. The focus in DC public always seems to be on ensuring that urban youth get to college, with any college being as good as any other in the eyes of educators.

Maybe Basis will alter the equation, or even DCI, but I find this hard to imagine in a system with a long history of sugar coating challenge issues like mad to advance the careers of politicians. If a state funds G/T education for the top 5% of kids, like VA and MD do, kids get the early push they need to get into top colleges later. Some states only fund G/T education for the top 1%, to save money.

[Anonymous]

So, interviewers, what DOES it take to get into one of the higly selective colleges from a DC public school?

[Anonymous]

I graduated from an Ivy and also attended a top-tier CA school as well as a community college (lots of classes in high school as well as a study abroad semester and one regular semester). The Ivy and top-tier school were impressive but I was also very impressed by several of my teachers from the community college. I don't understand the obsession with Ivies that I've seen on this board (or Little Ivies for that matter). It is great to have that as a goal but there are many great universities where students will also get a good education. Like so many things in life, it really depends on the student. I look back at my Ivy experience and easily see that I didn't take advantage of all the opportunities. I fought my way into seminars with professors who were leaders in the field but then I was too shy to go to office hours and really get to know them in that and other ways. Even if a kid (from a top school, private or public) does everything "right" the chances are still very much against getting into an Ivy. Why isn't the focus on getting a good education and not the label attached? Yes, I understand that labels do count in life but I am just thinking of the kids who are crushed when they don't get in, feeling that they've let down their parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An IBO program by definition does ability tracking, with the IB degree at the end - the highest level - so we're not particularly worried but happy there is a public middle/high school option that we can consider over private school. We're not interested in Basis or Latin.

I had no idea the senior guidance counselor was from Holyoke! I'll be just as happy if DC attends Amherst, Williams, Swathmore, etc. over the Ivies, DH and I attended...

Latin does ability tracking in HS, not in MS, other than for algebra, which helps drive out most of the high-SES families somewhere between 6th and 9th grades. Anybody who disputes this need only look at the percentage of white kids, over a third for MS and around 10% for HS, although the figure is rising.

The Ivies take 6-10% of applicants (other than Cornell, 18%, the only public-private school among them), the "Little Ivies" take around 15%, pretty much the same applicant pool. Holyoke takes closer to 40%. I interview Metro area applicants for my Little Ivy and hardly anybody gets in from DCPS, while PS kids from MoCo and Fairfax commonly do. They usually come up through ES and MS G/T programs and have much higher AP and SAT test scores than even the best DCPS kids, including white kids. A good third of them earn the full IB diploma, which is no longer remarkable. Top schools now look at the total IB score more than the diploma and 40+ isn't uncommon.

If DCI really does offer several levels for each subject, terrific, but since no other MS in the city does, and the charter board has offered stiff resistance to any sort of selective admissions, even for a sensible, non-race or class-based reason (bilingualism), it's tough to argue with the skeptics. Even Deal doesn't track much yet.

Why would the charter board allow extensive ability grouping but not selective admissions? In that case, wouldn't the dreaded elitism and cherry-picking simply emerge within the school (with massive over-representation of high-SES families in upper echelon courses)? That doesn't sound politically tenable, no matter how many high-SES families wind up enrolling.



The charter board most likely wouldn't allow selective admission regardless of the academic goals of the school, BASIS's approval is a good example of this. However, does the charter board have the authority to prevent a school from developing different tracks within a school or preventing "over-representation of high-SES families" in the advanced tracks? From what I understand, the answer is no. Isn't this the same issue facing BASIS? I think a school will get around the political issue if they offer open admission and thus anyone in theory has access to all of the curriculum, what happens after that I believe is beyond the board's control.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, interviewers, what DOES it take to get into one of the higly selective colleges from a DC public school?

Little Ivy Interviewer here. Here's what I've seen other applicants do that DCPS and Latin kids generally don't:

*Score 700s on all three sections of the SAT if high-SES, and at least mid 600s if low-SES/FARMs. Take the SAT multiple times if necessary. Making the 700 cuts only means that an application is read - Ivies/Little Ivies now reject around 3/4 of the kids with at least one perfect SAT score. A kid's chances of admission rise from around 10% to 15% if they score in the 750-800 range on a section rather than in the 700-750 range. Banneker's average SAT scores are in the 480-520 range. Don't know what Latin's are, but not 700s.

*Pick a favorite school and apply Early Action/Decision in October, even if binding. Chances of admission double by applying early.

*If language immersion in ES, have immersion experiences in MS and HS during summers/breaks. Low-SES kids can apply for foundation grants to participate in immersion camps, domestically and abroad. MoCo and Fairfax fund such camps for low-SES kids, DC isn't doing this. If high-SES with enough space in the home, hire a series of part-time au pairs speaking the immersion language, possible through the State Dept. program to age 12, if at least one of the parents isn't fluent in it.

*Participate in the Johns Hopkins CTY camps (nearest at campus of St. Stephens and St. Agnes in VA), preferably from the summer after 2nd grade through MS. The MS camps are sleep-over camps. Hopkins waives the $2,500 - $4,000 fee for FARMs kids. Participate in the Stanford University EPSY on-line programs for gifted youth, particularly for math and science. MS kids can also do Kumon, Saxon and Khan Academy math on-line.

*Take algebra no later than the 7th grade, even if humanities oriented. If a DC PS doesn't offer it before 8th grade, takes it during the summer at a Johns Hopkins camp or via Stanford EPSY.

*If the school offers IB, pursue the full diploma and score 40+ (schools can revoke admissions offers for a low total score). Even if a school offers IB, take AP language exams (no longer any need to take AP courses to take exams) or SAT II language exams and get 700s+ (or retake). Do this because IB test scores don't come out until after HS graduation, which can handicap IB kids. If a school does not offer IB, take at least 7 AP tests, preferably 10. Score all 4s and 5s, even if low-SES. Retake any tests where the score is a 3 or lower. If a humanities student, take 2 IB and AP language tests, or just 2 AP.

*Pursue unusual extra-curriculars and summer activities, preferably one of a kind involving travel/volunteering.

*If science-oriented, enter at least one of the national science or team robotics competitions with a mentor from 10th grade, or the NIH high school research program. Do not stop at AB calculus and physics (one year), take the second year/level, BC, through self-study if necessary.

Not every applicant does all this of course, but I've never seen one fail who did and I've interviewed around 80. One caveat: the "rules" for top HS athletes, actors and musicians are different. Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand the obsession with Ivies that I've seen on this board (or Little Ivies for that matter). It is great to have that as a goal but there are many great universities where students will also get a good education.

I see what you're saying - some of the weakest students in my medical school were Ivy leaguers. The real issue now is student loan debt. Low-income and lower middle-class kids and their parents generally now come out of Ivies, Little Ivies, top technical schools and of course the military academies, without student loan debt, not true a generation ago. With second and third tier private liberal arts colleges now running parents and students as much as the top tier, increasingly, parents are saying they won't pay for lesser schools. And when kids shoulder enormous debt burdens to attend somewhat selective state schools when they could have come out of a highly selective privates without any debt, the obsession with Ivies and Little Ivies starts to make sense. I think that honors programs at state schools are a terrific deal, as are some undergrad schools abroad (Canada, Scotland, Ireland). That's where I hope my high-SES (but not super rich!) DC ends up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, interviewers, what DOES it take to get into one of the higly selective colleges from a DC public school?

Little Ivy Interviewer here. Here's what I've seen other applicants do that DCPS and Latin kids generally don't:

*Score 700s on all three sections of the SAT if high-SES, and at least mid 600s if low-SES/FARMs. Take the SAT multiple times if necessary. Making the 700 cuts only means that an application is read - Ivies/Little Ivies now reject around 3/4 of the kids with at least one perfect SAT score. A kid's chances of admission rise from around 10% to 15% if they score in the 750-800 range on a section rather than in the 700-750 range. Banneker's average SAT scores are in the 480-520 range. Don't know what Latin's are, but not 700s.

*Pick a favorite school and apply Early Action/Decision in October, even if binding. Chances of admission double by applying early.

*If language immersion in ES, have immersion experiences in MS and HS during summers/breaks. Low-SES kids can apply for foundation grants to participate in immersion camps, domestically and abroad. MoCo and Fairfax fund such camps for low-SES kids, DC isn't doing this. If high-SES with enough space in the home, hire a series of part-time au pairs speaking the immersion language, possible through the State Dept. program to age 12, if at least one of the parents isn't fluent in it.

*Participate in the Johns Hopkins CTY camps (nearest at campus of St. Stephens and St. Agnes in VA), preferably from the summer after 2nd grade through MS. The MS camps are sleep-over camps. Hopkins waives the $2,500 - $4,000 fee for FARMs kids. Participate in the Stanford University EPSY on-line programs for gifted youth, particularly for math and science. MS kids can also do Kumon, Saxon and Khan Academy math on-line.

*Take algebra no later than the 7th grade, even if humanities oriented. If a DC PS doesn't offer it before 8th grade, takes it during the summer at a Johns Hopkins camp or via Stanford EPSY.

*If the school offers IB, pursue the full diploma and score 40+ (schools can revoke admissions offers for a low total score). Even if a school offers IB, take AP language exams (no longer any need to take AP courses to take exams) or SAT II language exams and get 700s+ (or retake). Do this because IB test scores don't come out until after HS graduation, which can handicap IB kids. If a school does not offer IB, take at least 7 AP tests, preferably 10. Score all 4s and 5s, even if low-SES. Retake any tests where the score is a 3 or lower. If a humanities student, take 2 IB and AP language tests, or just 2 AP.

*Pursue unusual extra-curriculars and summer activities, preferably one of a kind involving travel/volunteering.

*If science-oriented, enter at least one of the national science or team robotics competitions with a mentor from 10th grade, or the NIH high school research program. Do not stop at AB calculus and physics (one year), take the second year/level, BC, through self-study if necessary.

Not every applicant does all this of course, but I've never seen one fail who did and I've interviewed around 80. One caveat: the "rules" for top HS athletes, actors and musicians are different. Hope this helps.

Wow, I got into an Ivy 15 years ago for undergrad (humanities/social sciences) and I didn't do the majority of your list--just good SAT score, grades, school leadership and volunteering. And I attended a standard/average parochial school for MS/HS. What happened??!!

[Anonymous]

My sibling pulled his kid out of Wilson partly because the college guidance counseling was grim. Kids would get 5 minutes with a counselor every few months, and no push to aim high, or the sort of advice offered by the Little Ivy interviewer. Have heard the same about SWW.

The Latin counselor is supposed to be top notch, but, yes, the school steers kids to small liberal arts colleges, not everyone's cup of tea. These charter start ups tend to work a lot better for MS than HS. I don't expect DCI to be different but hope I'm wrong.

[Anonymous]

Wow, I got into an Ivy 15 years ago for undergrad (humanities/social sciences) and I didn't do the majority of your list--just good SAT score, grades, school leadership and volunteering. And I attended a standard/average parochial school for MS/HS. What happened??!!

Several things have happened. The children of the first generation of Ivy and Little Ivy financial aid babies, who stormed in during the 80s, are now applying in droves. Also, legacy admissions are way down. Harvard, at nearly 2/3 just 30 years ago, has dropped to 22%, opening the door to a flood of hungry second generation immigrant kids (e.g. Asians who attend magnets like Bronx Science, Stuyvesant and Chicago Lab School) as well as wealthy, and very well prepared, foreign students (e.g. from China, India). Also, in the last five years, all the Ivies have adopted the Common Application on-line, meaning kids can cut, paste and click to apply to a dozen schools at once, when it used to be hard work to complete applications one at a time. And like another PP points out, rising college costs are driving applicants to Ivies because parents are drawing the line at paying tens of thousands, and going into debt themselves, for other schools.

[Anonymous]

This is nonsense. Yu Ying already practices ability grouping as well as tier two tracking. DCI is an extension of YY, with other immersion schools thrown in the mix for sustainability. I don't know which of the immersion schools will control DCI, but I guarantee that because the majority of the space has been designated to YY, YY will have much influence. So enough about the doomsday gloomy inability to group children's academic ability. It's already happening.

[Anonymous]

"Yu Ying already practices ability grouping as well as tier two tracking."

Um, YY parent here.

There is a track for kids who can't read in English.

The notion that there is true tracking by ability at YY is not true. Bored doesn't even begin to sum up my child's experience at YY. At least it's only every other day and DC finds Chinese enjoyable.

The notion that YY leadership has the ability to create a competitive high school is laughable. You've got some business smarts there, but nothing in regard to curriculum, instruction and hiring and retaining high skilled instructors.

Best of luck, but we're headed out to private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^You're being harsh and the obsenities aren't needed. This PP makes a good point. We pulled our middle schooler grader out of 2 Rivers for a private, although it was a friendly, happy school, because of the lack of ability grouping. We were concerned that he was not on track to be admitted either to the Ivies one of us attended for undergrad and grad school or the military academy the other attended. Our younger child is at a language immersion school and we' are also concerned about open lottery admissions at DCI. If you aren't concerned, great, but other parents are, and invalidating their concerns isn't reasonable.

One of our best friends is a teacher at Latin. She talks openly about problems associated with putting low-performing and high-performing kids into the same classrooms (Latin only differentiates for 8th grade algebra in MS). She doesn't think that Latin's HS is on the road to "launching Ivy League careers" because that's not the orientation of the school. The administrators, guidance counselors (the most senior of whom is a Mt. Holyoke grad) and teachers aspire to see graduates attend small liberal arts colleges (e.g. Hamilton), not Ivies, top technical schools like MIT and CalTech, or military academies. Will Basis DC be different? Who knows.

Unfortunately, SWW and Wilson aren't as different from Latin as we'd like. We'd love to see one high-powered public HS in the city emerge. Will DCI be it? Hard to imagine open lottery admissions doing the trick.

Latin tests for math when a student enters the school and offers Algebra in 7th grade. Kids are offered electives. The kids who need extra help are given it during electives, other kids do enrichment activities. Latin also has summer school for kids who need extra help. Perfect, no, but my child is working about two years above where I worked at the same age (I base this on the books he is assigned and the amount of writing required, as well as math). My child has the grades to apply to SWW, but we will probably stay for HS (we went to ivies and are optimistic that our child will as well if that is what he wants). Every HS parent I have met thinks highly of the college counselor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, interviewers, what DOES it take to get into one of the higly selective colleges from a DC public school?

Little Ivy Interviewer here. Here's what I've seen other applicants do that DCPS and Latin kids generally don't:

*Score 700s on all three sections of the SAT if high-SES, and at least mid 600s if low-SES/FARMs. Take the SAT multiple times if necessary. Making the 700 cuts only means that an application is read - Ivies/Little Ivies now reject around 3/4 of the kids with at least one perfect SAT score. A kid's chances of admission rise from around 10% to 15% if they score in the 750-800 range on a section rather than in the 700-750 range. Banneker's average SAT scores are in the 480-520 range. Don't know what Latin's are, but not 700s.

*Pick a favorite school and apply Early Action/Decision in October, even if binding. Chances of admission double by applying early.

*If language immersion in ES, have immersion experiences in MS and HS during summers/breaks. Low-SES kids can apply for foundation grants to participate in immersion camps, domestically and abroad. MoCo and Fairfax fund such camps for low-SES kids, DC isn't doing this. If high-SES with enough space in the home, hire a series of part-time au pairs speaking the immersion language, possible through the State Dept. program to age 12, if at least one of the parents isn't fluent in it.

*Participate in the Johns Hopkins CTY camps (nearest at campus of St. Stephens and St. Agnes in VA), preferably from the summer after 2nd grade through MS. The MS camps are sleep-over camps. Hopkins waives the $2,500 - $4,000 fee for FARMs kids. Participate in the Stanford University EPSY on-line programs for gifted youth, particularly for math and science. MS kids can also do Kumon, Saxon and Khan Academy math on-line.

*Take algebra no later than the 7th grade, even if humanities oriented. If a DC PS doesn't offer it before 8th grade, takes it during the summer at a Johns Hopkins camp or via Stanford EPSY.

*If the school offers IB, pursue the full diploma and score 40+ (schools can revoke admissions offers for a low total score). Even if a school offers IB, take AP language exams (no longer any need to take AP courses to take exams) or SAT II language exams and get 700s+ (or retake). Do this because IB test scores don't come out until after HS graduation, which can handicap IB kids. If a school does not offer IB, take at least 7 AP tests, preferably 10. Score all 4s and 5s, even if low-SES. Retake any tests where the score is a 3 or lower. If a humanities student, take 2 IB and AP language tests, or just 2 AP.

*Pursue unusual extra-curriculars and summer activities, preferably one of a kind involving travel/volunteering.

*If science-oriented, enter at least one of the national science or team robotics competitions with a mentor from 10th grade, or the NIH high school research program. Do not stop at AB calculus and physics (one year), take the second year/level, BC, through self-study if necessary.

Not every applicant does all this of course, but I've never seen one fail who did and I've interviewed around 80. One caveat: the "rules" for top HS athletes, actors and musicians are different. Hope this helps.

Wow, I got into an Ivy 15 years ago for undergrad (humanities/social sciences) and I didn't do the majority of your list--just good SAT score, grades, school leadership and volunteering. And I attended a standard/average parochial school for MS/HS. What happened??!!

Not PP. Which part of the country did you apply? It makes a difference if you are from NYC/Westchester, Bethesda/CC/DC, Boston, etc. and the rest of the country. It's tough and highly competitive to get in from these areas and while it's gotten somewhat worse since the 80ties when I went, the kids who get into the Ivies then and now are the very top. THAT hasn't changed at all. I went to an Ivy and met a lot of other kids from most of the elite schools doing debate and invariably if they were from DC, it was from Bethesda/CC; Chicago, New Trier; NYC, Hunter, Stuy, etc. I'm sure that hasn't changed much.

That said, we're willing to see how DCI will work out. Certainly, a good middle school option is welcome. While I am a fan of ability tracking and testing for admissions in high school, middle school not so much. Like PP said, as long as they have algebra in 7th grade and geometry by 8th - it'll be enough.