spin-off! What is so awful about attending school with exclusively upper middle class kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What is so awful about attending school with exclusively upper middle class kids?

When "diversity in schools" stops being the same thing as "less than great schools", I'll embrace it. Until then, no thanks.

For us who maybe don't live in such a great school district - "less than great school" might actually be an issue. Or maybe my kid has special learning needs that make a public school a terrible fit. Or whatever the reason. The question still remains ....

So is it really so awful that my kid attends a "school with exclusively upper middle class kids"?

Not the pp you quoted. My staunch answer is "No." As long as you teach your children that all people are equal regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, or financial means. Poor people aren't bad and rich people aren't good. Get them involved in community service and charity early. If the school is a good fit for your child and provides the level of education you're happy with, then go there. There's no need to bend over backwards to eschew private school so your little one will become a "good person." There are lots of crappy, mean-spirited people from all income levels. Think about it. Did you turn out exactly like your other classmates, or are you more a product of what your parents taught you at home?

It just sounds like from many posts that people want the schools to teach diversity instead of the parents.

I don't want the school to "teach" diversity, as it's not something that can really be taught. It's something that needs to be experienced. If everyone my kids go to school with is just like them, the school (and I as a parent) can "teach" diversity all I want, but it's not going to go as far in getting them comfortable around all sorts of people as actually attending school with all sorts of people will.

Not true. A visit to any racially diverse school's cafeteria will show you that this doesn't happen. Children/teens gravitate towards others "like them." Did you attend college in the US? Did you befriend people of varied cultures, races, nationalities? If so, then there's a great way to teach your children about being comfortable with others who don't look like them. Visit your friends or have them visit you. Privates aren't 100% white. Go out of your way to befriend students who aren't white (sorry, but I'm making an assumption that you are white). Invite them and their families over. Sometimes all it takes is one or two good friends from a particular race, ethnicity, or religion to help you accept the entire group. You can learn to be comfortable around a variety of people, just start with the people at your child's school, in your neighborhood (again, even upper NW isn't 100% white).[/quote]

Actually, I'm black, and just as guilty of self-segregating in high school as anyone else. But my point, and the point of some pp's that posted above, is that in a diverse school, you often have to interact with kids of different races and SES levels. While your lunch group - i.e., your closest friends - likely will be those similar to you, it is damn hard to avoid any interactions with kids of different backgrounds if you are in a truly diverse school. And I agree with the pp's pointing out that in most private schools, there is not a lot of socio-economic diversity, which is what the topic of this post was originally about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not true. A visit to any racially diverse school's cafeteria will show you that this doesn't happen. Children/teens gravitate towards others "like them." Did you attend college in the US? Did you befriend people of varied cultures, races, nationalities? If so, then there's a great way to teach your children about being comfortable with others who don't look like them. Visit your friends or have them visit you. Privates aren't 100% white. Go out of your way to befriend students who aren't white (sorry, but I'm making an assumption that you are white). Invite them and their families over. Sometimes all it takes is one or two good friends from a particular race, ethnicity, or religion to help you accept the entire group. You can learn to be comfortable around a variety of people, just start with the people at your child's school, in your neighborhood (again, even upper NW isn't 100% white).

Honestly, it's hard to know where to start here. In a racially diverse school, kids share classes with kids who are different from them, even if the cafeteria will look somewhat (not entirely) segregated. There is a great deal of exposure to low-SES kids in diverse schools. In fact, many kids will have at least a few low-SES friends, even if they don't cross over to different cliques in the cafeteria.

Then after arguing that everybody self-segregates, this PP comes up with the counter-intuitive recommendation that we all reconnect with the minority friends from our college days that the PP says we never had, so that ... I guess our kids can meet the kids of these re-established minority friends the PP says we never had in the first place? Finally, it's been pointed out many times here and elsewhere that minorities at DC private schools are upper middle or upper class -- this isn't real socio-economic diversity.

Trying to follow the first part of your argument. Are you saying that you want to place your child in a both racially and economically diverse school so they can befriend children from different economic levels? Ok. But if your goal is to teach them that money doesn't matter, couldn't you do that at a private. Most of these lessons are taught at home with the parents' attitudes towards money, or seeing how they interact with people in different economic levels. I've also gotten the impression from the boards that children of middle class families attend privates, so it's possible for them to meet them there. If you're looking for someone with from a low income family, why not make it a point to get to know the students on financial aid? Some of their parents have mentioned on this board how difficult it is for their children to make friends. I guess my thought is, just how many friends do lower school aged children have? I had about five close friends I saw outside of school and a few more in school and that's it. So, if your children have a friend who's from a middle income family and a friend from a lower income family, AA and Latino friends who are upper or upper middle class, including your child, that's a group of five diverse friends (assuming your child is white and of any income class).

In the second part of your argument, you're making assumptions not stated. I think the only reasonable assumption that can be made is that the pp's college friends don't live in the immediate neighborhood, or if they do, they don't visit. I never assumed they didn't have minority friends. Quite the opposite; I assumed they did. The questions I asked were meant to get the pp thinking about people in her life she could introduce her children to. I have college and law school friends who never or rarely visit, but we've kept in touch. A few even live in this area, but our lives are so different, we don't have the time to hang out like we used to. Finally, what's wrong with upper and upper-middle class minorities? Why wouldn't they count as having a diverse group of friends?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's hard to know if the posters claiming "diverse schools don't teach diversity, instead you should make some token minority friends for the purpose of inviting them to dinner so your kids can see them" are naive, or self-deluding. I want to think naive, but some of this seems so willfully blinkered and calculating.

As some PPs have said, send your kids to private school for small classes and a good education. But don't think that they will be exposed to real SES diversity there, of the sort they would get (yes, it's true despite the specious arguments about cafeterias) in a truly diverse school.

Making "token" friends? Seriously??? Now that's messed up. You don't think a white person can have be real, honest to goodness, love-you-like-a-sister friends who aren't white?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What is so awful about attending school with exclusively upper middle class kids?

When "diversity in schools" stops being the same thing as "less than great schools", I'll embrace it. Until then, no thanks.

For us who maybe don't live in such a great school district - "less than great school" might actually be an issue. Or maybe my kid has special learning needs that make a public school a terrible fit. Or whatever the reason. The question still remains ....

So is it really so awful that my kid attends a "school with exclusively upper middle class kids"?

Not the pp you quoted. My staunch answer is "No." As long as you teach your children that all people are equal regardless of their race, religion, ethnicity, or financial means. Poor people aren't bad and rich people aren't good. Get them involved in community service and charity early. If the school is a good fit for your child and provides the level of education you're happy with, then go there. There's no need to bend over backwards to eschew private school so your little one will become a "good person." There are lots of crappy, mean-spirited people from all income levels. Think about it. Did you turn out exactly like your other classmates, or are you more a product of what your parents taught you at home?

It just sounds like from many posts that people want the schools to teach diversity instead of the parents.

I don't want the school to "teach" diversity, as it's not something that can really be taught. It's something that needs to be experienced. If everyone my kids go to school with is just like them, the school (and I as a parent) can "teach" diversity all I want, but it's not going to go as far in getting them comfortable around all sorts of people as actually attending school with all sorts of people will.

Not true. A visit to any racially diverse school's cafeteria will show you that this doesn't happen. Children/teens gravitate towards others "like them." Did you attend college in the US? Did you befriend people of varied cultures, races, nationalities? If so, then there's a great way to teach your children about being comfortable with others who don't look like them. Visit your friends or have them visit you. Privates aren't 100% white. Go out of your way to befriend students who aren't white (sorry, but I'm making an assumption that you are white). Invite them and their families over. Sometimes all it takes is one or two good friends from a particular race, ethnicity, or religion to help you accept the entire group. You can learn to be comfortable around a variety of people, just start with the people at your child's school, in your neighborhood (again, even upper NW isn't 100% white).[/quote]

Actually, I'm black, and just as guilty of self-segregating in high school as anyone else. But my point, and the point of some pp's that posted above, is that in a diverse school, you often have to interact with kids of different races and SES levels. While your lunch group - i.e., your closest friends - likely will be those similar to you, it is damn hard to avoid any interactions with kids of different backgrounds if you are in a truly diverse school. And I agree with the pp's pointing out that in most private schools, there is not a lot of socio-economic diversity, which is what the topic of this post was originally about.

I understand now. My thinking is that if you're trying to have a diverse group of friends, it can be accomplished at a private. But it a person is self-segregating then it won't help being at a private. Got it. I thought the original topic was that, despite being at a private school, you can have a child who respects people from all nationalities, races, economic groups, etc. I still think it's possible if the parents are willing to make the effort to instill these values.

[Anonymous]

I send my kid to an ethnically diverse private school because it's a better school for child than the public school options I have. He is in K, and at his school, he is given on average 2 hours of outdoor free play/recess/PE PER DAY. He's not given homework, and the academic expectations are age-appropriate. The teachers are loving, observant, and extremely mindful to developing a curriculum that is appropriate. My son loves his school, and I am a big fan. I say this as a woman of color who is also an educator. There is extremely little economic diversity at his school, which is a negative factor, but all the other positives outweigh this aspect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I send my kid to an ethnically diverse private school because it's a better school for child than the public school options I have. He is in K, and at his school, he is given on average 2 hours of outdoor free play/recess/PE PER DAY. He's not given homework, and the academic expectations are age-appropriate. The teachers are loving, observant, and extremely mindful to developing a curriculum that is appropriate. My son loves his school, and I am a big fan. I say this as a woman of color who is also an educator. There is extremely little economic diversity at his school, which is a negative factor, but all the other positives outweigh this aspect.

Ditto - except I am white - what is so awful about that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's hard to know if the posters claiming "diverse schools don't teach diversity, instead you should make some token minority friends for the purpose of inviting them to dinner so your kids can see them" are naive, or self-deluding. I want to think naive, but some of this seems so willfully blinkered and calculating.

As some PPs have said, send your kids to private school for small classes and a good education. But don't think that they will be exposed to real SES diversity there, of the sort they would get (yes, it's true despite the specious arguments about cafeterias) in a truly diverse school.

Making "token" friends? Seriously??? Now that's messed up. You don't think a white person can have be real, honest to goodness, love-you-like-a-sister friends who aren't white?

It was the cynicism of this that got to me. Befriending minorities just to provide a lesson for your kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I send my kid to an ethnically diverse private school because it's a better school for child than the public school options I have. He is in K, and at his school, he is given on average 2 hours of outdoor free play/recess/PE PER DAY. He's not given homework, and the academic expectations are age-appropriate. The teachers are loving, observant, and extremely mindful to developing a curriculum that is appropriate. My son loves his school, and I am a big fan. I say this as a woman of color who is also an educator. There is extremely little economic diversity at his school, which is a negative factor, but all the other positives outweigh this aspect.

Ditto - except I am white - what is so awful about that?

That sound you hear is me banging my head against the table.

It's been said over and over on this thread, by me and by several others, that there is almost no socio-economic diversity in DC private schools. So when your kid befriends minorities at the private school, he or she is making friends kids who do have a different outlook, but minority kids from a lower social class often have a radically different outlook, different tastes in music, different goals in life (especially if college isn't affordable). Your kid will not meet these low-SES kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That sound you hear is me banging my head against the table.

It's been said over and over on this thread, by me and by several others, that there is almost no socio-economic diversity in DC private schools. So when your kid befriends minorities at the private school, he or she is making friends kids who do have a different outlook, but minority kids from a lower social class often have a radically different outlook, different tastes in music, different goals in life (especially if college isn't affordable). Your kid will not meet these low-SES kids.

So, again, explain to me how my children would meet low-SES kids if I sent them to my JKLM instead of private. Seems to me all it would do is lower the number of available OOB slots, of which there are already precious few, by two more.

[Anonymous]

Once more, with feeling: As 1:44 and 10:50 both explained, your kid will interact with low-SES kids in a truly diverse school. Your kid will be in class with low-SES kids, even if your kid doesn't eat lunch with them. This point has been made by two different posters with actual experience, by my count. Also, the idea that you can teach your kids to value diversity in a vacuum, without having them do their own interacting, has been debunked. The idea that kids can completely segregate themselves has been debunked.

Let me quote 10:50 (not me), just to be helpful: "But my point, and the point of some pp's that posted above, is that in a diverse school, you often have to interact with kids of different races and SES levels. While your lunch group - i.e., your closest friends - likely will be those similar to you, it is damn hard to avoid any interactions with kids of different backgrounds if you are in a truly diverse school."

Honestly, the only reason I can think why you missed these posts, and also missed the multiple posts saying low-SES doesn't exist in privates, is because you don't want to see them. I never like it when posters tell others they have poor reading comprehension. Instead I think these things are just something you don't want to hear. That, or your debating style is to ignore anybody who refutes you.

So I guess I'm not going to waste any more time here.

I'll just wind up with this: send your kid to private school because you want art and social studies before middle school, or good teacher-student ratios. This is a choice we made ourselves. But it's ridiculous to keep making flimsy arguments about how true diversity (low SES) exists in private schools.

[Anonymous]

My kids do not have interaction with kids in low socioeconomic level in school but they do in - sports, neighborhood, church, community center. So I think you are missing the point that my kids get this experience in other aspects of life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids do not have interaction with kids in low socioeconomic level in school but they do in - sports, neighborhood, church, community center. So I think you are missing the point that my kids get this experience in other aspects of life.

I'm not the poster you're responding to (at least I think not), but if you're getting exposure to diverse SES in your neighborhood, then that's a totally different ballgame. Just curious, are you in a east of the part DC neighborhood but send your kids to a private? And what churches have a lot of SES diversity? (again, just curious)

As for the poster in the JKLMM schools, I think you're right, you're not going to get a ton of exposure to different SES in those schools either - the demographics of the neighborhoods dictate that (I imagine there is some diversity though, through the OB process, although it's not necessarily going to be much lower SES).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Personal story: I went to (public) school in an affluent suburb--my high school was sort of like the Whitman/BCC of its area. Suffice it to say that the suburb was one where kids routinely received luxury cars for their 16th birthday (often the hand-me-downs from their parents). My parents both worked, and we were solidly middle class in the true sense of the word (i.e. family of four in a 1500-sq ft. house, vacation travel only by car to free national parks, had an afterschool job to pay for non-essentials, it was a big deal to receive a present like a bicycle, etc.). We lived in the "poor" section of my otherwise wealthy suburb.

In that day and age (I'm in my early 40s) my parents honestly didn't take me to volunteer at soup kitchens or the like--for one it wasn't that common in that day, but more importantly, they were always exhausted and busy because they were both working--and so, honestly, I grew up thinking we were much "poorer" than we actually were, because my frame of reference was my peers, and we had so much less than they did. It wasn't until I got to college (state school, didn't want to take out loans for private) and realized how fortunate my family was compared with so many. I know that sounds shocking that it wasn't until college, and maybe we were shallow , but you'd be surprised how important one's peer group is in terms of comparing lifestyles (there is research on this).

I wouldn't want my kids to have a similarly skewed sense.

Completely agree with this. I grew up in a similar situation and had the audacity to be "embarrassed" about my lifestyle, to the point that it affected friendships, well into college.

[Anonymous]

I think our kids are way ahead of all of us on the issue of diversity. They just don't see a lot of the barriers we all grew up with. But school is only one factor in raising enlightened kids -- we parents are way more important. Take your kids on a road trip through Texas or down the Mississippi River or any other place that's real -- that will leave an impression. And don't take the SAT prep books along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think our kids are way ahead of all of us on the issue of diversity. They just don't see a lot of the barriers we all grew up with. But school is only one factor in raising enlightened kids -- we parents are way more important. Take your kids on a road trip through Texas or down the Mississippi River or any other place that's real -- that will leave an impression. And don't take the SAT prep books along.

I agree!