Anyone touring top schools and finding then all to be dumpy and unimpressive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (maybe in the Selingo book?) that if you want swanky facilities and amazing food in the dining halls, choose a university that does not prioritize financial aid. That money has to come from somewhere. On the other hand, if you want a diverse student body that prioritizes merit over full-pay ability, that FA money has to come from somewhere. Few universities have the ability to offer lavish facilities and still have enough to prioritize financial aid as well as meet all the other needs of a university. Facilities and dining hall food are low on my list, but if they are high on your list, you should know how to target your search.

I think this comes from the Gladwell piece who tried to draw a straight line from Bowdoin's good food and Need Aware financial aid to Vassar's bad food and Need Blind status. But that's a crock imo. First of all, Bowdoin has more work study kids than almost any other peer school and most work in food services (at some point in the chain, they grow a lot of their own food). And also it skips a lot of very expensive tickets like Dean's salaries and lawsuits paid out - both of which cost Vassar a lot more than Bowdoin

Also, I dont really care if any college is need aware for international kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (maybe in the Selingo book?) that if you want swanky facilities and amazing food in the dining halls, choose a university that does not prioritize financial aid. That money has to come from somewhere. On the other hand, if you want a diverse student body that prioritizes merit over full-pay ability, that FA money has to come from somewhere. Few universities have the ability to offer lavish facilities and still have enough to prioritize financial aid as well as meet all the other needs of a university. Facilities and dining hall food are low on my list, but if they are high on your list, you should know how to target your search.

I think this comes from the Gladwell piece who tried to draw a straight line from Bowdoin's good food and Need Aware financial aid to Vassar's bad food and Need Blind status. But that's a crock imo. First of all, Bowdoin has more work study kids than almost any other peer school and most work in food services (at some point in the chain, they grow a lot of their own food). And also it skips a lot of very expensive tickets like Dean's salaries and lawsuits paid out - both of which cost Vassar a lot more than Bowdoin

Also, I dont really care if any college is need aware for international kids

Thanks for reminding me where this came from. I usually take a Gladwell with a grain of salt, but had forgotten where I heard this. I do think there is always a trade off between facilities and other priorities but it doesn't look like Bowdoin's FA is different from comparable SLACs so it does seem really unfair to single them out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd absolutely leave Sidwelll (or any private HS) if they doubled or tripled the size.

I pay primarily for the small class size. Size matters. Research is pretty clear that the ideal learning environment is less than 16 students per class.

Fine…skip all nationally ranked colleges and just pick a SLAC. Have fun because I guess your kid needs the same handholding as 13 year old.

Handholding is expecting billion dollar institutions to have support resources? Also many ivies you can go four years without a class about 20 students, but you just won't be a STEM student.

Don't understand the issue. Went to a T20 school. Great classes freshman/sophomore year with classes with roughly 150 students. By senior year, it was seminars with 15 or so. But what I remember as my favorite were the big ones.

I have no problem with class sizes, but I think it is a bit ridiculous when people get on these threads and act like class sizes don't matter when most colleges are in an arms race to have lowest class size and many of the top colleges have the largest size similar to what you said of 150. Heck, my Probability course at a liberal arts college had 95 students. It's always a conversation about handholding and spoonfeeding, when I do think that the most rigorous environments are small ones where you, the individual, are challenged.

Except they aren’t in arms race for smallest class size…where did that come from…it is never talked about as an issue at my kid’s top 10 (nor is anyone complaining about class size).

Is your child in any STEM courses, particularly CS. There is a pretty big talk about overbloated CS departments, even in top colleges. Kids don't complain about class sizes, but they really don't know much about learning and are happy to skate around an education. Professors do care about the class sizes and do weep for their universities to decrease the sizes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

You must be behind. Professors have been complaining about the service industry that is modern academia since the 90s.

[Anonymous]

Get in first. Then worry about best looking campus in your eyes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From 11 pages, it seems all we've ascertained is that Ivies+ Georgetown + a few SLAC's are dumpy. All the other top universities and colleges across America are not.

All the colleges the wannabes here can't afford and/or can't get their dime a dozen striver kids into. lol

Everyone who doesn't like my college is a wannabe striver who could never get in, yada yada

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

Why wouldn't you at that price point? Why is college a thing people have come to expect to pay high dollar amounts without getting service/products for what you pay for? And no, the education alone is not the only thing you're buying.

Yes it is.

Yes it is.

Again: yes it is.

As pointed out earlier, there is always High Point.

I'm sorry but this is foolish. No the education isn't the only thing, and most colleges will emphasize that it isn't just an educational space. Colleges have become mini towns with high quality dorms, dining halls, funding for travel and emergencies, health clinics, mental health offices, etc. American education would be quite cheap if it were just about education, but, no, it's about resort towns with high quality amenities. Do you really think NYU has improved their education so much to justify a near $100k price? Even Harvard-why did it used to be 40k and is nearly 90k, what $50k difference in their education occurred, or did they just build a few more buildings and improve student life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

Oh I'd say between 1995 and 2000. Colleges have nobody to blame but themselves for it.

[Anonymous]

People are really angry at parents for expecting good quality amenities when its the universities have increased tuition nearly fivefold. I can be la-di-da if the education were maybe 10-20k per year, but $88,000 requires more scrutiny in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

High Point has an amazing campus and dorms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

You must be behind. Professors have been complaining about the service industry that is modern academia since the 90s.

+1. Not sure I understand why university costs have ballooned so much while profs still plug away in spartan offices and labs as they always have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

Oh I'd say between 1995 and 2000. Colleges have nobody to blame but themselves for it.

I think it's more of a "chicken or the egg" situation. People want nice dorms, gyms, etc. Colleges respond, but some colleges respond with more lavish amenities and the competition to attract students never ends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

You must be behind. Professors have been complaining about the service industry that is modern academia since the 90s.

+1. Not sure I understand why university costs have ballooned so much while profs still plug away in spartan offices and labs as they always have.

I could think of a few reasons: the admin bloat directly follows with colleges attempt to cover services that really aren't educational and often aren't necessary, such as student health offices with vaccinations, study abroad offices, title XI coordinators/sexual health staff, academic resource centers (very important but typically over staffed), Junior/Senior dorms with luxury suites increasing the size of the housing staff, higher sustainability and green initiatives that tend to create whole new departments of sustainability and more facilities workers to maintain the campus, massive in-house HR departments, queer/poc resource centers, and outdoor education programs.

These are all just from noticing things during my visits at DC's college, but I'm sure there's many more examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

Why wouldn't you at that price point? Why is college a thing people have come to expect to pay high dollar amounts without getting service/products for what you pay for? And no, the education alone is not the only thing you're buying.

Yes it is.

Yes it is.

Again: yes it is.

As pointed out earlier, there is always High Point.

I'm sorry but this is foolish. No the education isn't the only thing, and most colleges will emphasize that it isn't just an educational space. Colleges have become mini towns with high quality dorms, dining halls, funding for travel and emergencies, health clinics, mental health offices, etc. American education would be quite cheap if it were just about education, but, no, it's about resort towns with high quality amenities. Do you really think NYU has improved their education so much to justify a near $100k price? Even Harvard-why did it used to be 40k and is nearly 90k, what $50k difference in their education occurred, or did they just build a few more buildings and improve student life?

You are strawman-ing. The very different point responded to was regarding whether the statement "And no, the education alone is not the only thing you're buying." is correct. It is not - or at least it shouldn't be. If you turn down a better education and a better start in life because you don't like the dorms then you are foolish. Very foolish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a rising senior and have been doing the rounds of many top 25 schools (universities and colleges). We started with safety schools last year and then junior year grades came back so this summer we've been touring some top schools. My kid is trying to figure out an ED.
We have a rising junior as well so we have a couple of kids with us.

The more of these schools we tour, the less impressed I am. They're sort of all a bit falling apart, poorly maintained, with pretty odd students (tour guides, summer students and especially touring students alike--don't jump all over for for saying this--being brutally honest), little sense of community, same-old, same-old stuff about study-abroad, etc. Many have very large class sizes, etc.

I feel like we're (kid and parent alike) are supposed to love these schools and want to pay $90K for them and my kids can't find one they really like. I very, very, very much feel like we're being sold a product that we're supposed to want to buy because of prestige and name but when we see the product up close it doesn't look great and I feel like a sheep lining up to say "yes sir. let me put my kid through mental/emotional twister for a 5% chance of being admitted to your school and then I will gladly pay you $90K for the honor. Yes sir." It just feels... gross. Maybe not gross but yucky. My kids are like, "well I didn't really like this or that here but I could probably make it work." They too feel the pressure to LIKE these places. The Almighty XYZ or ABC school! It's supposed to be their dream!

Please don't jump on me. I know it's summer and we're not seeing the universities at their best but ugh. They're all kind of disappointing. I can't be the only one who feels this way? (I'm not going to name university/college names because then this post will turn into a giant thread about whatever school(s) I name.

Dumpy? Unimpressive, meaning structurally, academically, what? As you looking at colleges or real estate to purchase?

She is buying a service for $360k and expects the quality of the service to reflect the price paid.

When did people start thinking of education in this way?

Why wouldn't you at that price point? Why is college a thing people have come to expect to pay high dollar amounts without getting service/products for what you pay for? And no, the education alone is not the only thing you're buying.

Yes it is.

Yes it is.

Again: yes it is.

As pointed out earlier, there is always High Point.

I'm sorry but this is foolish. No the education isn't the only thing, and most colleges will emphasize that it isn't just an educational space. Colleges have become mini towns with high quality dorms, dining halls, funding for travel and emergencies, health clinics, mental health offices, etc. American education would be quite cheap if it were just about education, but, no, it's about resort towns with high quality amenities. Do you really think NYU has improved their education so much to justify a near $100k price? Even Harvard-why did it used to be 40k and is nearly 90k, what $50k difference in their education occurred, or did they just build a few more buildings and improve student life?

You are strawman-ing. The very different point responded to was regarding whether the statement "And no, the education alone is not the only thing you're buying." is correct. It is not - or at least it shouldn't be. If you turn down a better education and a better start in life because you don't like the dorms then you are foolish. Very foolish.

I don't see why. If DC decides to turn down Duke, who keeps their campus pristine and has a high student Quality of Life, over Harvard, I won't be kicking any buckets. I guess it matters if you're status obsessed.