Antisemitic incident at Blair

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What many Americans don’t seem to understand in the same way as those of us who grew up in Europe in the 50s, 60s or 70s do is that Nazi atrocities were broad and long lasting throughout Europe in addition to the horrific death camps and the devastating toll on the Jewish population.

I'm not this PP, but I want to pull this out because it reflects my first reaction to the letter from the Blair principal. The choice to describe what happened as "an antisemitic salute" rather than "a Nazi salute" is an interesting one because it explicitly prioritizes Jewish suffering over other groups murdered by the Third Reich. If anyone has cause to be upset about the wording or the MCPS response, it's representatives of Roma/Sinti groups, the LGBTQ+ community, persons with disabilities, and people of Polish descent.

As a queer Polish person, though, I'm not upset. I understand that in a North American context, Jewish suffering in WWII is far better understood than the suffering of any other group.

But it does grate a little to log on and see folks claiming to represent the Jewish community complaining about the MCPS response when they were actually the only group mentioned, and the only group whose representative organizations were linked.

DP. Seriously?? Just stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What many Americans don’t seem to understand in the same way as those of us who grew up in Europe in the 50s, 60s or 70s do is that Nazi atrocities were broad and long lasting throughout Europe in addition to the horrific death camps and the devastating toll on the Jewish population.

I'm not this PP, but I want to pull this out because it reflects my first reaction to the letter from the Blair principal. The choice to describe what happened as "an antisemitic salute" rather than "a Nazi salute" is an interesting one because it explicitly prioritizes Jewish suffering over other groups murdered by the Third Reich. If anyone has cause to be upset about the wording or the MCPS response, it's representatives of Roma/Sinti groups, the LGBTQ+ community, persons with disabilities, and people of Polish descent.

As a queer Polish person, though, I'm not upset. I understand that in a North American context, Jewish suffering in WWII is far better understood than the suffering of any other group.

But it does grate a little to log on and see folks claiming to represent the Jewish community complaining about the MCPS response when they were actually the only group mentioned, and the only group whose representative organizations were linked.

DP. Seriously?? Just stop.

Another DP. Yep seriously, very good points made.

[Anonymous]

I guess PP doesn’t realize that nearly 2 million non-Jew Polish were killed by the Nazis.

It’s shameful how little many know about WWII.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?

I don't know.

And my point is that we'll see what consequences the students receive and can debate the appropriateness at that time.

Maybe now the outrage should be about what these kids DID, as opposed to getting pre-mad about how the school district may or may not react (other than sending a letter to parents and contacting the police)

If I were to guess, the consequences for this at Blair will be very different than the slap on the wrist that happens at a W.

Careful. Your jealousy of west county is showing again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree the fact incident is concerning and the involved students should be disciplined.

But I also think it's possible-to-likely that the incident was kids being stupid and ignorant, but not actually anti-Semitic. My experience with other people in this area makes me think it's unlikely that a group of students at Blair are starting some kind of Nazi club. The way the incident is described makes me think there's some likelihood they didn't realize that what they were doing looked like a Nazi salute to others. They were scene doing it together while posing for a picture. Does anyone actually think a group of students at Blair were like "let's take a picture of ourselves doing a Nazi salute in theiddle of the day in campus!"?

This is different from the incidents of anti-Semitic graffiti at other MoCo schools, acts committed at night and which are clearly intended as hate speech. It's not hard to imagine an angry, wrong headed individual doing that, while obviously making an effort not to get caught

What are the odds this was a group of kids doing a dance move or attempting a "cool" pose for a photo, and just didn't realize it looked like they were heiling Hitler?

Blair parent here and I agree. A Hitler salute could easily be a dance move or a regular salute. Given the reaction though I wonder if it was more than that? Eg directed at Jewish students, knowingly a Hitler salute or accompanied by Nazi or antisemitic language?

You realize you’re minimizing antisemitism, right? Would you do that if the kids were doing something anti-Asian or anti-Black?

No if it was clearly anti Asian or anti black. You realize Hitler targeted other races too don’t you? A Hitler salute is offensive to blacks, gays, Gypsys, the disabled and many others targeted by Hitler. Many members of my family were interred and some died in Nazi concentration camps, and more were executed by the Nazis.

Again, I think there’s more to this story than we know - there must be evidence that it was more than just a raised right hand that could be easily misinterpreted.

I have family members who were killed by the Nazis too. My dad’s entire side of the family is in this country because of pogroms by the Soviets against Ukrainian Jews in Odessa.

So don’t lecture me about antisemitism.

1) I’m not lecturing you, responding to you lecturing me.
2) I’m not Jewish, neither were any of my (close) family members who were murdered (some by firing squad) by the Nazis for their efforts to protect Jewish people during the war, or who were sent to concentration camps because of who they were. This was not that long ago - some of the survivors only died in the past couple of years - I personally heard their stories and I personally saw the life long impact, that was both emotional and physical.

No one is saying the Nazis only targeted Jews.

And the fact that you feel you need to tell me it wasn’t that long ago is highly offensive. Trust me — I know.

I’m talking about MY experience talking to MY aunts and uncles and witnessing their trauma and loss and even life long physical disability due to the Nazis. How that is highly offensive I don’t know, but you need to get a grip.

You didn’t need to say “this wasn’t that long ago” to a Jewish person. Have some sensitivity.

FFS.

It’s like explaining the basics of racism to a black person.

You’re right. I should have said it was a long time ago, let’s forget it. Would that make you happier?

If this were an in person conversation you’d just have agreed with me and the conversation would move on. You’re just looking for something to get offended about. We’re not talking about the basics of antisemitism, we’re talking about Hitler and the Second World War. How about you actually read what I wrote?

It’s astounding that you feel that one group has a monopoly on Nazi trauma and that no one else can legitimately have been impacted and that it’s offensive that someone whose family members died in concentration camps, fought in the resistance, saved many Jewish lives (and were honored for doing so), were executed by firing squad and more, comments that this was our recent history (EVEN THOUGH you agree with this, because apparently, according to you only Jewish people can say that??!). What many Americans don’t seem to understand in the same way as those of us who grew up in Europe in the 50s, 60s or 70s do is that Nazi atrocities were broad and long lasting throughout Europe in addition to the horrific death camps and the devastating toll on the Jewish population.

No. You don’t get it.

It’s offensive to explain basic facts about WWII and the Holocaust to a Jewish person.

I never said Jews have a monopoly on any of this, but your need to explain to me that your family was also impacted sounds like you’re trying to center yourself in this conversation.

So you want to separate everyone by race and ethnicity and everyone can only talk about ourselves? Do you also want everyone elto wear some sore of insignia so we know who is who?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?

I don't know.

And my point is that we'll see what consequences the students receive and can debate the appropriateness at that time.

Maybe now the outrage should be about what these kids DID, as opposed to getting pre-mad about how the school district may or may not react (other than sending a letter to parents and contacting the police)

If I were to guess, the consequences for this at Blair will be very different than the slap on the wrist that happens at a W.

Careful. Your jealousy of west county is showing again.

Oh please. 5 will get you 10 that PP is right.

[Anonymous]

I think schools in general have been doing a lot of talking around tolerance and anti racism and this is some sort of a pushback, rebellion from the kids. I have seen a few kids including my son egg each other on to throw a Nazi salute. We are Jewish, with family members lost in the camps in Latvia. I was appalled but please please get a grip, drawing swastika and the hand gesture is done for shock value. These kids are still figuring things out. Yes, they are teens and should know better. Teachable moment nothing more. Expelled? Suspended? Too far! I am a Russian Jew, I have experienced antisemitism more acutely than most American Jews. No need for the sanctimony. I remember playing Nazis vs Russians as a child and doing the hand gesture and drawing sea sticks in desks and fences. Literally dial the rhetoric down a little. None of these kids is the next Hitler.

[Anonymous]

I’ve got to day, cancelling the term “anti-semitic” as insufficiently inclusive would just be the *chef’s kiss” of the current climate.

I’m glad MCPS appears to be taking this (yes) anti-semitic gesture seriously. It’s pretty clear that anti-semitism is taken less seriously in schools. My kid feels like he can’t even talk about it because “nobody cares.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess PP doesn’t realize that nearly 2 million non-Jew Polish were killed by the Nazis.

It’s shameful how little many know about WWII.

saying that the Nazi salute is anti-semitic does not indicate a lack of knowledge about WWII.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?

I don't know.

And my point is that we'll see what consequences the students receive and can debate the appropriateness at that time.

Maybe now the outrage should be about what these kids DID, as opposed to getting pre-mad about how the school district may or may not react (other than sending a letter to parents and contacting the police)

+100

From the beginning of this thread, some folks seemed absolutely committed to the narrative that no one cares, nothing will be done, MCPS doesn't care about Jews, etc.

This despite the fact that the principal took it seriously, sent out an all-school email, and involved law enforcement. Also despite the fact that the letter specifically called out anti-semitism and included links to sites dealing explicitly with anti-Jewish hate.

Look, I know that generational trauma makes people skeptical, but MCPS has done everything one could have expected at this point. Insisting that "no one cares about the Jews" is patently false in general, and demonstrably false in this specific case based on the evidence right in front of us.

Getting mad because the students who did this have not yet been executed in a public square is not helpful or productive.

This is a cover up. What consequences did those students get? What is mcps doing to make Jewish students feel safe? More horrifying is the timing with the holidays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What many Americans don’t seem to understand in the same way as those of us who grew up in Europe in the 50s, 60s or 70s do is that Nazi atrocities were broad and long lasting throughout Europe in addition to the horrific death camps and the devastating toll on the Jewish population.

I'm not this PP, but I want to pull this out because it reflects my first reaction to the letter from the Blair principal. The choice to describe what happened as "an antisemitic salute" rather than "a Nazi salute" is an interesting one because it explicitly prioritizes Jewish suffering over other groups murdered by the Third Reich. If anyone has cause to be upset about the wording or the MCPS response, it's representatives of Roma/Sinti groups, the LGBTQ+ community, persons with disabilities, and people of Polish descent.

As a queer Polish person, though, I'm not upset. I understand that in a North American context, Jewish suffering in WWII is far better understood than the suffering of any other group.

But it does grate a little to log on and see folks claiming to represent the Jewish community complaining about the MCPS response when they were actually the only group mentioned, and the only group whose representative organizations were linked.

DP. Seriously?? Just stop.

If this happened to the lgbtq community you’d be the first one up in arms. Your disrespect is shocking. This behavior happens as mcps only cares about groups like yours and seems to think this behavior is ok as long as it’s not happening to the leaderships kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?

I don't know.

And my point is that we'll see what consequences the students receive and can debate the appropriateness at that time.

Maybe now the outrage should be about what these kids DID, as opposed to getting pre-mad about how the school district may or may not react (other than sending a letter to parents and contacting the police)

+100

From the beginning of this thread, some folks seemed absolutely committed to the narrative that no one cares, nothing will be done, MCPS doesn't care about Jews, etc.

This despite the fact that the principal took it seriously, sent out an all-school email, and involved law enforcement. Also despite the fact that the letter specifically called out anti-semitism and included links to sites dealing explicitly with anti-Jewish hate.

Look, I know that generational trauma makes people skeptical, but MCPS has done everything one could have expected at this point. Insisting that "no one cares about the Jews" is patently false in general, and demonstrably false in this specific case based on the evidence right in front of us.

Getting mad because the students who did this have not yet been executed in a public square is not helpful or productive.

This is a cover up. What consequences did those students get? What is mcps doing to make Jewish students feel safe? More horrifying is the timing with the holidays.

How it is a cover up? Please explain. Who is "covering up" what?
And what consequences do you really think those kids would have already received AND the general public would know about, if it happened on Thursday or Friday?

Lastly, what suggestions do you have for what more MCPS could be doing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I guess PP doesn’t realize that nearly 2 million non-Jew Polish were killed by the Nazis.

It’s shameful how little many know about WWII.

saying that the Nazi salute is anti-semitic does not indicate a lack of knowledge about WWII.

No one said it did. Describing it as an antisemitic salute rather than a Nazi salute is a different issue. Do you even understand how it was used? And while we’re at it, Nazis are overall white suprematists. Not only did they advocate for a master race it was for white individuals with certain traits, while eradicating “lesser” individuals or traits.

What would your reaction be if the letter had described the Hitler salute as a white supremacist salute? Because that’s arguably just as accurate if not more so. That it was described as antisemitic suggests there was more to it than has been shared.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

It was conveniently done around the Jewish holidays. Kids behave this way as the adults either don’t care or encourage it. If it was done to other groups mcps would take a stand. But hate is ok to Jews, Asians and Muslims.

This doesn't address my point or my question? If this happened on Friday, what would you really expect to have been done more or different by Sunday?

I would expect the kids to be suspended, especially given the timing around the holidays. You seriously think this is ok?

If it happened on Friday at lunch and today is Sunday- do you think a suspension could be effected in that time and that the general public would know about it?

This is MCPS. Those kids won’t be suspended.

Maybe not. But with the ambiguity around timing I don’t see any evidence of “sweeping it under the rug”. And it seems silly to get pre-mad about what consequences will or will not occur. It also seems like focusing on the wrong thing. Seems to me we should be talking about the students who did it (and maybe their parents).

With all the W school incidents, did any of them get suspended?

I don't know.

And my point is that we'll see what consequences the students receive and can debate the appropriateness at that time.

Maybe now the outrage should be about what these kids DID, as opposed to getting pre-mad about how the school district may or may not react (other than sending a letter to parents and contacting the police)

+100

From the beginning of this thread, some folks seemed absolutely committed to the narrative that no one cares, nothing will be done, MCPS doesn't care about Jews, etc.

This despite the fact that the principal took it seriously, sent out an all-school email, and involved law enforcement. Also despite the fact that the letter specifically called out anti-semitism and included links to sites dealing explicitly with anti-Jewish hate.

Look, I know that generational trauma makes people skeptical, but MCPS has done everything one could have expected at this point. Insisting that "no one cares about the Jews" is patently false in general, and demonstrably false in this specific case based on the evidence right in front of us.

Getting mad because the students who did this have not yet been executed in a public square is not helpful or productive.

This is a cover up. What consequences did those students get? What is mcps doing to make Jewish students feel safe? More horrifying is the timing with the holidays.

Please, please remove your tinfoil hat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Re "sweeping it under the rug": Seems to me that this depends on something the article and letter do not address: WHEN did the incident occur? If it happened Thursday or Friday, seems like this was swift appropriate action to notify the community and involve the police. If it happened two weeks ago and the letter only when out, prompting the article, after people complained, that would be a problem. We just don't know.

And, while abhorrent, my read of the current law is that an arm movement would not qualify as a hate crime. Particularly if it wasn't done "at" someone with the intent to intimidate or threaten. Maybe it should, but it doesn't...

This goes on at the W's almost monthly and although you can find dozens of posts about it here nothing is ever done to change anything.

You keep posting about it but never provide a supporting source.