7/24/23 Trial of Usman Shahid -- driver who killed two Oakton teens

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The govt rarely loses in jury trial. 90% of the time the govt gets a conviction.

Most people think the govt wouldn’t bother to bring a trial unless they were certain and had adequate proof of guilt.

But if the govt can get you to plead guilty in exchange for a guilty plea and the terms are politically acceptable then why risk that even 10% chance they might lose.

For the same reason the defendant has incentive to take a plea before the trial begins. As the govt usually wins. The defense could just be playing chicken hoping for a better deal.

Once the trial has started and if the evidence seems to overwhelmingly point to guilt and the prosecution is putting on a good case for which there is no robust defense then the govt has less incentive to negotiate and can offer less favorable terms.

True, but the 10% who aren't convicted were probably represented by Greenspun.

This case must have some underlying technical argument about the 4Runner and the driver's failure to maintain control. I think the driver should absolutely go to jail, but I can see enough blame being laid at the feet of the 4Runner to prevent it.

I'm completely speculating, but I can't imagine Greenspun advised they go to trial. The facts are just SO BAD. I wonder how the 4Runner driver presents. Because if that person is sympathetic I think Shahid has a real problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

100% agree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Doesn’t matter. Would be like blaming the 4 Runner driver if he had an expired license and shouldn’t have been on the road. Yes, technically he shouldn’t have camped in the oncoming lane waiting for pedestrians to cross, but the overwhelming cause of the crash is Shahid’s dangerous driving. If he hadn’t been going 81 he would have stopped in time or collided at a speed that wouldn’t have resulted in the deaths of two pedestrians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Check for pedestrians on the sidewalk? What?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

I had to drive past the site shortly after it happened, so I was hyper aware of my speed, the road, etc. It’s a blind approach to the intersection because of a hill. Doing the speed limit, oncoming traffic could likely have stopped (and could have been seen in time by a turning vehicle) but there is NO WAY that a car going 80+ MPH could have avoided a crash. Whether you consider the 4 Runner at fault in any capacity, two innocent children are dead and one injured because Shahid was beyond reckless and irresponsible. And I refuse to believe that as a student at OHS, he wasn’t familiar enough with the area to realize that there would be pedestrians and traffic, and that his excessive speed could have resulted in just this outcome.

[Anonymous]

OK -- -does anyone know if the case has been continued AGAIN?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Doesn’t matter. Would be like blaming the 4 Runner driver if he had an expired license and shouldn’t have been on the road. Yes, technically he shouldn’t have camped in the oncoming lane waiting for pedestrians to cross, but the overwhelming cause of the crash is Shahid’s dangerous driving. If he hadn’t been going 81 he would have stopped in time or collided at a speed that wouldn’t have resulted in the deaths of two pedestrians.

“Technically”? Found another bad driver.

No, you do not put yourself into the lane of oncoming traffic before it’s clear.

Yes, the overwhelming cause was Shahid, but the 4Runner was also a factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Check for pedestrians on the sidewalk? What?

He was waiting in the lane of oncoming traffic while the pedestrians crossed the road he was turning into. He should have looked for pedestrians before starting the turn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Doesn’t matter. Would be like blaming the 4 Runner driver if he had an expired license and shouldn’t have been on the road. Yes, technically he shouldn’t have camped in the oncoming lane waiting for pedestrians to cross, but the overwhelming cause of the crash is Shahid’s dangerous driving. If he hadn’t been going 81 he would have stopped in time or collided at a speed that wouldn’t have resulted in the deaths of two pedestrians.

“Technically”? Found another bad driver.

No, you do not put yourself into the lane of oncoming traffic before it’s clear.

Yes, the overwhelming cause was Shahid, but the 4Runner was also a factor.

It’s only a technical violation because in reality the police are never going to ticket someone for doing it. Drivers do it all the time. As a pedestrian I hate it but that’s how many people drive.

Odds are half the jurors do it themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Check for pedestrians on the sidewalk? What?

He was waiting in the lane of oncoming traffic while the pedestrians crossed the road he was turning into. He should have looked for pedestrians before starting the turn.

I do that all the time in DC. Cars drive slow there, and there are gobs of pedestrians at all times.

The problem was not the 4Runner making a poor decision, if the speeding BMW came over the hill unforeseeably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Doesn’t matter. Would be like blaming the 4 Runner driver if he had an expired license and shouldn’t have been on the road. Yes, technically he shouldn’t have camped in the oncoming lane waiting for pedestrians to cross, but the overwhelming cause of the crash is Shahid’s dangerous driving. If he hadn’t been going 81 he would have stopped in time or collided at a speed that wouldn’t have resulted in the deaths of two pedestrians.

“Technically”? Found another bad driver.

No, you do not put yourself into the lane of oncoming traffic before it’s clear.

Yes, the overwhelming cause was Shahid, but the 4Runner was also a factor.

It’s only a technical violation because in reality the police are never going to ticket someone for doing it. Drivers do it all the time. As a pedestrian I hate it but that’s how many people drive.

Odds are half the jurors do it themselves.

DP. Is it a technical violation? That was how I was taught when I was learning to drive.

[Anonymous]

I'm having trouble visualizing what happened. Did any media source post a computerized re-creation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Doesn’t matter. Would be like blaming the 4 Runner driver if he had an expired license and shouldn’t have been on the road. Yes, technically he shouldn’t have camped in the oncoming lane waiting for pedestrians to cross, but the overwhelming cause of the crash is Shahid’s dangerous driving. If he hadn’t been going 81 he would have stopped in time or collided at a speed that wouldn’t have resulted in the deaths of two pedestrians.

“Technically”? Found another bad driver.

No, you do not put yourself into the lane of oncoming traffic before it’s clear.

Yes, the overwhelming cause was Shahid, but the 4Runner was also a factor.

It’s only a technical violation because in reality the police are never going to ticket someone for doing it. Drivers do it all the time. As a pedestrian I hate it but that’s how many people drive.

Odds are half the jurors do it themselves.

DP. Is it a technical violation? That was how I was taught when I was learning to drive.

You were taught to starting turning into the lane of oncoming traffic and wait there for pedestrians? What state was that?

I was taught to pull up into the intersection and turn after it’s clear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A person turning left in a 35 mph zone cannot reasonably foresee that a rocket-like-car will be coming at him at 80+ mph. There's no way the 4 Runner driver could or should have expected someone to be coming THAT fast down the road.

The 4 Runner driver looked and saw nothing coming, or whatever was coming was far enough away not to be a problem IF THEY WERE GOING anywhere near the speed limit. If a person was driving 50 mph, you could see that. But, you cannot adapt to someone going 80+ mph coming over a hill. You just can't. And the law doesn't expect you to. The roads and allowable turn lanes do not anticipate someone going 80+ on that road.

If opposing traffic going 80+mph was foreseeable, the road would not have been designed to allow turning left without giving a "protected left turn" (i.e. oncoming traffic would have a red light when left-turning traffic had a green arrow to turn left). That was not how the street was designed. Why? Because it's reasonable to expect a left-turning driver to see oncoming traffic that is moving at some speed greater than the posted limit (designers know that people speed). But they don't design for people to be going more than TWICE the speed limit.

The 4Runner driver had no way of anticipating a rocket coming at him.

But did he check for pedestrians before he started turning? He started turning before it was clear.

Check for pedestrians on the sidewalk? What?

He was waiting in the lane of oncoming traffic while the pedestrians crossed the road he was turning into. He should have looked for pedestrians before starting the turn.

I do that all the time in DC. Cars drive slow there, and there are gobs of pedestrians at all times.

The problem was not the 4Runner making a poor decision, if the speeding BMW came over the hill unforeseeably.

It was mostly the BMW, but partially the 4Runner for being stopped in the lane of oncoming traffic.