Big law attorneys who complain about the lifestyle

[Anonymous]

PP here. That was without bonus. It’s closer to 600k all in. Not sure how that’s relevant to the point of the thread.

[Anonymous]

But there are also people in $3m houses with kids in all privates who are doing the complaining. It’s almost satire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Interesting, this is not my experience, but I'm thinking there is a distinction between "counsel" and "of counsel." The "of counsel" people are often not employees or salaried.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Interesting, this is not my experience, but I'm thinking there is a distinction between "counsel" and "of counsel." The "of counsel" people are often not employees or salaried.

I’m an “of counsel” and was previously a “counsel” another v20 firm. My comp (including bonus) would be 600-650k at either firm if I were full time, which is also in line with other offers I received when I switched firms. Counsel (of counsel, special counsel, etc) means different things at different firms, for me it has always been akin to a non equity partner role (at firms who only have equity partners), but it definitely varies (eg I know one firm with income partners and counsel just calls is 6+ year associates “counsel”).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But there are also people in $3m houses with kids in all privates who are doing the complaining. It’s almost satire.

You think there is some magic number of house worth or school placement where people should stop complaining?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Then why wouldn’t they just stay a senior associate?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Interesting, this is not my experience, but I'm thinking there is a distinction between "counsel" and "of counsel." The "of counsel" people are often not employees or salaried.

I’m an “of counsel” and was previously a “counsel” another v20 firm. My comp (including bonus) would be 600-650k at either firm if I were full time, which is also in line with other offers I received when I switched firms. Counsel (of counsel, special counsel, etc) means different things at different firms, for me it has always been akin to a non equity partner role (at firms who only have equity partners), but it definitely varies (eg I know one firm with income partners and counsel just calls is 6+ year associates “counsel”).

I also thought an "of counsel" arrangement was typically like a contracted hourly rate (percentage of rate that the firm bills to client) or a % of receipts. 1099 rather than employee. What you are referring to sounds like an associate relationship but called "counsel"? I'm assuming that if you are salaried, there are billing expectations like with associates? If not, sign me up....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Interesting, this is not my experience, but I'm thinking there is a distinction between "counsel" and "of counsel." The "of counsel" people are often not employees or salaried.

I’m an “of counsel” and was previously a “counsel” another v20 firm. My comp (including bonus) would be 600-650k at either firm if I were full time, which is also in line with other offers I received when I switched firms. Counsel (of counsel, special counsel, etc) means different things at different firms, for me it has always been akin to a non equity partner role (at firms who only have equity partners), but it definitely varies (eg I know one firm with income partners and counsel just calls is 6+ year associates “counsel”).

I also thought an "of counsel" arrangement was typically like a contracted hourly rate (percentage of rate that the firm bills to client) or a % of receipts. 1099 rather than employee. What you are referring to sounds like an associate relationship but called "counsel"? I'm assuming that if you are salaried, there are billing expectations like with associates? If not, sign me up....

Yes, I am salaried and there are billable expectations. I’m part time, but like I said at the two firms I’ve been at it’s essentially an income partner role at a firm that does not have income partners. Totally possible the counsel role at some firms is what you describe, it’s kind of a catch all, I think at my firm some of the staff attorneys have the sort of arrangement you describe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Interesting, this is not my experience, but I'm thinking there is a distinction between "counsel" and "of counsel." The "of counsel" people are often not employees or salaried.

I’m an “of counsel” and was previously a “counsel” another v20 firm. My comp (including bonus) would be 600-650k at either firm if I were full time, which is also in line with other offers I received when I switched firms. Counsel (of counsel, special counsel, etc) means different things at different firms, for me it has always been akin to a non equity partner role (at firms who only have equity partners), but it definitely varies (eg I know one firm with income partners and counsel just calls is 6+ year associates “counsel”).

Is the base 500k ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is more of a rant/vent/observation. I am a female attorney a little more than ten years out of law school. I work in-house for a non-profit managing a team of attorneys and legal assistants. The work is pretty interesting and my hours are decent but I don't make anywhere near what my friends who are at big law firms do. I have two little kids and deliberately chose this path because it is more family-friendly. We still have a very nice life! I am the breadwinner by a smidge.

Over the past six months or so, I have consistently had very annoying interactions with other attorney parents I meet. It's usually someone who is working in big or medium-sized law firms complaining about how it's a ton of work and the hours suck and it's so crazy and being an attorney is just awful. Generally, they will then talk about someone they know who went in-hours but how could never leave because they can't make less money and afford their life. LOL OMG HOW DO PEOPLE AFFORD TO LIVE HERE?

I am literally having these conversations at the bus stop in a neighborhood where pretty much everyone has a similarly-priced house. I usually just smile and say something, "Oh yea, it's hard to be a parent and work," and try to listen because I am generally a nice person and don't really want to start something with a neighbor, but I am so tired of this tone-deaf interaction. The vast majority of working parents make far less than someone working one of these "crazy busy 80 hour a week" jobs, often with less flexibility. Yet somehow, people are making it work!!! It's actually not even that hard. I probably make about a fifth of what the person who most recently made this complaint to me does, and I still consider myself extremely privileged to be able to raise my kid in this area.

Life is full of choices and if someone in one of these jobs wants to do something else, I am very certain they could go out and make it happen.

Is this kind of whining unique to lawyers or do I just notice it more because it's the world I know? No wonder people don't like us.

I've found that law seems to attract a generally self-absorbed, big ego type. So, yes, being tone-deaf is par for the course. I've also found that attys like to talk about themselves a lot. Sweeping, generalizations, I know, but how many kids in law school and in firm life do you know that fit the bill? I know a ton.

We, attys, are very important busy little bees. And we like to let everyone know about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Then why wouldn’t they just stay a senior associate?

DP. At my friend’s firm, of counsel seems to be a step up in title and gives her more authority to deal autonomously with clients & opposing counsel. Not sure how it affects her comp & hours, but she seems to expect it to give her more leverage to turn down work and draw boundaries - eg take a long vacation, not work 12 hr days continuously. Seems to be a recognition that she is a valuable senior part of the firm but not partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.

Then why wouldn’t they just stay a senior associate?

DP. At my friend’s firm, of counsel seems to be a step up in title and gives her more authority to deal autonomously with clients & opposing counsel. Not sure how it affects her comp & hours, but she seems to expect it to give her more leverage to turn down work and draw boundaries - eg take a long vacation, not work 12 hr days continuously. Seems to be a recognition that she is a valuable senior part of the firm but not partner.

Sounds like she has little or no billable hour expectations. The more I think about it, the more ideal this arrangement is (other than equity partner, which can also be good). If she is only paid if she works and collects, she is incentivized, as needed, to work, but the firm doesn't necessarily lose anything if she doesn't work (besides a fraction of overhead, I guess).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is more of a rant/vent/observation. I am a female attorney a little more than ten years out of law school. I work in-house for a non-profit managing a team of attorneys and legal assistants. The work is pretty interesting and my hours are decent but I don't make anywhere near what my friends who are at big law firms do. I have two little kids and deliberately chose this path because it is more family-friendly. We still have a very nice life! I am the breadwinner by a smidge.

Over the past six months or so, I have consistently had very annoying interactions with other attorney parents I meet. It's usually someone who is working in big or medium-sized law firms complaining about how it's a ton of work and the hours suck and it's so crazy and being an attorney is just awful. Generally, they will then talk about someone they know who went in-hours but how could never leave because they can't make less money and afford their life. LOL OMG HOW DO PEOPLE AFFORD TO LIVE HERE?

I am literally having these conversations at the bus stop in a neighborhood where pretty much everyone has a similarly-priced house. I usually just smile and say something, "Oh yea, it's hard to be a parent and work," and try to listen because I am generally a nice person and don't really want to start something with a neighbor, but I am so tired of this tone-deaf interaction. The vast majority of working parents make far less than someone working one of these "crazy busy 80 hour a week" jobs, often with less flexibility. Yet somehow, people are making it work!!! It's actually not even that hard. I probably make about a fifth of what the person who most recently made this complaint to me does, and I still consider myself extremely privileged to be able to raise my kid in this area.

Life is full of choices and if someone in one of these jobs wants to do something else, I am very certain they could go out and make it happen.

Is this kind of whining unique to lawyers or do I just notice it more because it's the world I know? No wonder people don't like us.

I've found that law seems to attract a generally self-absorbed, big ego type. So, yes, being tone-deaf is par for the course. I've also found that attys like to talk about themselves a lot. Sweeping, generalizations, I know, but how many kids in law school and in firm life do you know that fit the bill? I know a ton.

We, attys, are very important busy little bees. And we like to let everyone know about it.

It often actually makes a lot more sense for them to listen rather than talk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But there are also people in $3m houses with kids in all privates who are doing the complaining. It’s almost satire.

You think there is some magic number of house worth or school placement where people should stop complaining?

I think there’s a time and a place and a know you’re audience that people don’t seem to have sense for

[Anonymous]

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