Big law attorneys who complain about the lifestyle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The comp for senior associates and partners is so much greater (by orders of magnitude) than what a dual fed HHI of $350k is that it’s frankly shocking when clueless big law types talk about how they can’t afford to leave. It’s like no, you don’t want to change your lifestyle. Are you actually saying you couldn’t afford to live on GS15?

They have no perspective. So many of these lawyers have never really had to live on anything other than a biglaw salary, so they don't understand why it is like for average white collar professionals. They either went straight to law school from undergrad, or they may have worked for some amount of time but either in a high paying field (consulting, finance) or were heavily subsidized by parents. They've always been surrounded by people who are UMC or above, and have no concept of living any other way.

I mean, even in DC where COL is very high, the idea that someone would simply not think it was possible to live on 200-300k is an indication of the level of myopia we're talking about here. I think in some cases they truly don't know how that you can, in fact, buy a perfectly nice family home close in for 800-900k, that there are good public schools in the area that plenty of smart, caring parents are enthusiastic about sending their kids to, that you can take a perfectly lovely vacation for a family of 4 on a few thousand dollars, and do that twice a year and feel pretty satisfied.

They literally just don't know. It's George P. Bush not knowing how much a gallon of milk costs vibes. They are simply out of touch.

It's just risk-aversion. FWIW I would never buy an 800K home on a 200K salary. Again, extreme risk-aversion.

Well if you are a 28 year old making 200k in consulting facing burn out, you shouldn’t buy 200k.
Two federal employees making 200k, with decent experience and solid network, why not? They can do 1M no problem.

[Anonymous]

DP. I also chuckled at the “you should have $300k saved at the end of Big Law” comment. If you stick it out and had no loans to start!

I did BigLaw for 6 years (2012-2018). I walked out of law school with about $200k in debt. Living in DC (alone, but not in trendy area), I paid off my loans, spent $40k on a wedding, and saved maybe $40k (including retirement) before I left for in house. Paying off that much debt is hard and trust me, I was counting pennies and at times, felt guilty about any type of splurge. For example, I considered not having the wedding at all. I left BigLaw maybe 6 months after my loans were paid off and frankly, had I not married a man making even more money, I doubt I would have saved what I did. (His generous finance salary came with $200k in student loans of his own.)

[Anonymous]

3.5 years in biglaw and have saved 350k (not including retirement). Had minimal loans and paid 35k for a wedding. It’s not that hard if you’re not spending outrageous amounts. Expecting to be up to 450k by the end of the year. Spouse earns less so not depending that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DP. I also chuckled at the “you should have $300k saved at the end of Big Law” comment. If you stick it out and had no loans to start!

I did BigLaw for 6 years (2012-2018). I walked out of law school with about $200k in debt. Living in DC (alone, but not in trendy area), I paid off my loans, spent $40k on a wedding, and saved maybe $40k (including retirement) before I left for in house. Paying off that much debt is hard and trust me, I was counting pennies and at times, felt guilty about any type of splurge. For example, I considered not having the wedding at all. I left BigLaw maybe 6 months after my loans were paid off and frankly, had I not married a man making even more money, I doubt I would have saved what I did. (His generous finance salary came with $200k in student loans of his own.)

3k loan servicing/month is a lot!
I saved 40k/year when I was working as a contractor in NYC during 2011-2014. I only made 100k/year and had a nice Riverview apartment. I considered my life lux because I shopped at whole foods and had a trainer.
100k ~ take home pay about 6400/month, no 401k contribution because temp agency didn't offer matching.
My apartment was brand new and cost 2500/month, my share was 1250/month.
Among food is in the 200/month, trainer was 400/month, gym pass was 120/month. No time for other hobbies because I was either working out or making myself cheap, nutritious food from beef bones and chicken racks, and finding deals for avocado in the Mexican grocery .
Now that I have kids, we are literally spending $ every hour...

[Anonymous]

Biglaw has more options than people realize - if you identify a niche practice and don't mind not being top of the heap people can make a very good living without working insane hours all of the time. Particularly in DC v.s NYC. Too many lawyers like to act like martyrs and don't take personal agency to find a role that they like and find fulfilling. In many ways Biglaw is more open to switching groups/practice areas than smaller firms with fewer options, lower pay and many of the same downsides (time, stress etc..)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The comp for senior associates and partners is so much greater (by orders of magnitude) than what a dual fed HHI of $350k is that it’s frankly shocking when clueless big law types talk about how they can’t afford to leave. It’s like no, you don’t want to change your lifestyle. Are you actually saying you couldn’t afford to live on GS15?

They have no perspective. So many of these lawyers have never really had to live on anything other than a biglaw salary, so they don't understand why it is like for average white collar professionals. They either went straight to law school from undergrad, or they may have worked for some amount of time but either in a high paying field (consulting, finance) or were heavily subsidized by parents. They've always been surrounded by people who are UMC or above, and have no concept of living any other way.

I mean, even in DC where COL is very high, the idea that someone would simply not think it was possible to live on 200-300k is an indication of the level of myopia we're talking about here. I think in some cases they truly don't know how that you can, in fact, buy a perfectly nice family home close in for 800-900k, that there are good public schools in the area that plenty of smart, caring parents are enthusiastic about sending their kids to, that you can take a perfectly lovely vacation for a family of 4 on a few thousand dollars, and do that twice a year and feel pretty satisfied.

They literally just don't know. It's George P. Bush not knowing how much a gallon of milk costs vibes. They are simply out of touch.

It's just risk-aversion. FWIW I would never buy an 800K home on a 200K salary. Again, extreme risk-aversion.

Well if you are a 28 year old making 200k in consulting facing burn out, you shouldn’t buy 200k.
Two federal employees making 200k, with decent experience and solid network, why not? They can do 1M no problem.

200K TOTAL HHI and a 1M home? Or did you mean 200k/each? Because the first one is pure insanity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I am with you and my patience with it wears thin at times too. I'm further out than you (18 years) and no longer actually practice law, though work in consulting in a way that relies on my legal background. I've taken two left turns in my career in order to gain flexibility and work/life balance, and am at a place where I really like both my work and my lifestyle.

I have friends, colleagues, and old law school classmates who stuck out the Big Law track and for the most part are now partners. Some of them are happy. Some of them are not. The main differentiator is whether they chose their life or just let it happen. The people who were thoughtful in their choice of firm, practice area, and approach to their career generally have more satisfaction at this point and in some cases are really reaping the rewards of earlier hard work, instead of descending into the pit of working more and more hours the further into their career they go.

No one is every going to feel sorry for someone making 500k-3 million a year. I might be understanding of how sometimes life doesn't turn out as you hoped, but I don't feel sorry for you. And yes, you absolutely could decide today to change your life and make other choices. Worst case, you could be in a new job with a better lifestyle and still very financial secure and comfortable within a year. Most people could do it in less. They are afraid to. They don't know what they want in life. It's easier for them to go down their unhappy path than to make an affirmative choice about their lives.

I think you too are ignorant about how difficult the exit is. I personally know 5 (!) partners off the top of my head who exited for fedgov only after being promoted to partner because they simply never got an offer before then, despite applying and interviewing. They didn’t do it sooner because they were afraid or unstrategic or any of that. In fact the strategy/practice area is part of what it makes it hard. You have to wait for the right job at the right place for your relevant experience, and then there are good odds you’ll get passed over when you do have the opportunity to apply.

I underestimate nothing -- I am intimately aware of how these transitions occur.

The problem you are having is believing that someone working in a large law firm making a certain salary and doing a certain kind of work deserves only jobs that are at a certain level. They don't. If someone couldn't get the offer they wanted from the government or elsewhere until they made partner, that is a choice they made to pursue a certain career path that involved making partner at a law firm.

No one owes you anything. I'll repeat that: no one owes you anything. I don't care how hard it is for you to find your dream legal job or how hard it is to give up your 300k/yr income or how much the mortgage on your big house is or whatever. If you don't like your job, leave it. Don't spend years and years complaining to everyone who will listen that your super high paying job is really demanding.

Your experience is completely different than mine. No, these people were not leaving for high profile or supervisory government jobs. They were just moving to jobs relevant to their practices. As in, not the VA when their practice is securities law. It’s been very tough in the past few years, especially with all the hiring freezes.

It's tough for everyone. Do you think Big Law attorneys are uniquely burdened by the challenges of the market or the sometimes arbitrary nature of hiring? Nope.

OP's point is not "it's so easy to have a career like mine!" Her point is that it is weird and annoying to listen to people complain about how hard they have to work when they are extremely well compensated for that work and there are other options available to them. And there are always other options. If you don't see them, you are limiting yourself in ways that have everything to do your own hang ups and nothing to do with what is actually possible.

OP here. This is it exactly. I am not even saying that it's easy to transition to another job. I am saying that it is ridiculous for any attorney - heck, maybe any reasonably educated person? - to say that they have absolutely no other options available to them. It's especially ridiculous and tone-deaf to do in a group discussion with people who are definitely making less money than you and cite finances as the reason you are trapped.

I agree with you. I was in Big Law for many years and there were times when I miserable for all the usual reasons, but I never complained about it to anyone other than my spouse. First, it would sound as if I were bad-mouthing my firm as a place to work; and second, why would I expect sympathy from others if I were implicitly suggesting that I could never live as they do (i.e., making less money).

I did my time, then went in-house. It's the best of both worlds because I made a boat-load of money as a Big Law associate/partner that's now invested, yet have an interesting job that I know, in the back of my mind, is not really necessary from a financial perspective. And, because I wasn't airing the pros and cons of being a Big Law lawyer, I similarly can be relatively succinct if someone wants to know how being in-house compares to being Big Law.

[Anonymous]

Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

Not an unusual story. The people in the thread pretending it is are baffling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Biglaw has more options than people realize - if you identify a niche practice and don't mind not being top of the heap people can make a very good living without working insane hours all of the time. Particularly in DC v.s NYC. Too many lawyers like to act like martyrs and don't take personal agency to find a role that they like and find fulfilling. In many ways Biglaw is more open to switching groups/practice areas than smaller firms with fewer options, lower pay and many of the same downsides (time, stress etc..)

So what are the big law niche practices with reasonable hours?

[Anonymous]

I didn’t read the thread but I’m at the gov and have little kids and live in a close in suburb and deal w this too. It’s so tone deaf and annoying. Also they complain about how expensive everything is and it drives me nuts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

Seems low given that 6th years are at 475K with bonus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

Seems low given that 6th years are at 475K with bonus.

It's pretty well known that counsel and income partners often make less than senior associates. This is nothing new.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not asking for sympathy but I'm a big law counsel and I've tried to leave so many times to an in house role in my field and have been passed over every time. So I am stuck here making half a million (unless I want to hang a shingle which seems like way more work).

Golden handcuffs that I can't even get out of even though I want to.

You're making $500,000 as counsel? Do you even have billable goals?? I thought counsel / of counsel folks were often paid by percentage of receipts, so while there's an incentive to work more to make more, the firm doesn't necessarily lose if you bill less (except overhead contribution).

That's funny. Nowadays, most counsel are glorified senior associates with black box comp, which means make the same or less than an 8th year.