I feel bad for low-income/first-gen students at elite schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach in a Title 1 school and the rigor and workload is definitely lacking. Teachers are basically begging students to show up and hand in any work. If one of my high fliers went to a top school, the workload would crush them.

This is a helpful perspective. I teach a course at a "directional" university and the students who struggle the most each term seem to be from title 1 schools. It's frustrating because it's a very easy course. Yet I still find myself giving extensions because a good 25% of the students simply cannot be bothered to turn materials in on time (if at all).

They lack discipline and work ethic. That’s why they should serve in the Army or Marine Corps before they go to college.

I was a LMC rural school admit to an Ivy, I had a very hard time and I of course majored in a “hard” major because I needed a practical degree that would translate to a job when I graduated.

Student loans for law or med school would mean borrowing more than my parents house was worth — completely unfathomable.

I really wish my school had made me do a year at a prep school — I know that happens to a few people who are admitted, maybe it’s something they do for recruiter athletes? I don’t know who would pay for it — my parents certainly didn’t have the money, but I wish they had looked at my transcript — realized my school offered zero AP or IB courses and realized even though I was smart and tested well, I had never been challenged academically in my school career. Suddenly with real expectations and the need triage, i prioritized the wrong things: I used to just read the text then do the homework — I was very bad at taking class notes and our lectures were generally useless anyways. But college classes often have limited text resources and the lectures ARE the course, and I couldn’t capture what was said in a useful way.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I went to a low rated u, but we had a couple of AP classes which I took. Even so, I went to a no name state u due to finances, and my SAT scores were horrible (I never took a practice exam so I had never seen an exam like this prior to taking it). I also grew up to lower income immigrant parents who don't speak English.

But, even at my no name state u, there were students there from MC white families who couldn't pass the English and math placement exams, so they had to take remedial English and math courses. I was shocked. I thought that anyone who went to college, even a no name state u, had to be able to pass an easy English and math exam. The students I know who didn't pass it were recruited athletes.

As an immigrant, I had no knowledge about recruited athletes back then. I thought everyone at college must be fairly smart. I was super naive. This was back in the 80s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids from lower economic backgrounds have not had the benefit of private tutoring and elite HS rigor to prepare them for college hence the lower GPA.

They may not have been held to the same academic standards as an elite HS. They probably know cheating is not ok but if everyone you know does it in school, how to you really understand the impact?

For jobs, I think you need to take out the jobs that we’re gotten through connections. Lower income kids don’t have a pipeline into a high paying job interview.

A lower GPA in college is not some sign of a lack of preparation. Unless you're going to grad school nobody gives two shakes about your GPA. Lower income students tend to do work study, outside jobs and a dozen other hustles to get through. That takes a lot of time away from study groups and study time. And let's remember that at any college a 3.5 is still cum laude. Nobody should expect high school type grades in college.Great if you get them, but again, who ever asks unless you're doing grad school. Studies have been done on Fortune 500 CEOs and more than 50% not only went to minor colleges, they also reported being B students at best. And yes, PAID internships are a deal breaker, along with access to summer housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP is an idiot. I clicked on the post expecting to see some huge difference and it’s tiny. 3.5 versus 3.7 GPA, who cares? They are all doing great. OP’s stated facts have actually disproved their conclusion.

The lower salaries are explainable by a lot of things that are beyond the control of the students: like not having parents/relatives/family friends who can mentor you, lacking the polish and experiences that go with UMC+ wealth and make for good networking chit-chat (ski trips, hobbies, sleepaway camp, international travel, etc.), not being able to do internships unless they are well paid. So if anything, OP’s conclusion should be that university career offices should try to help poorer students overcome these challenges. They can’t (and shouldn’t try) to make everything equal, but at least they can give them a boost by sponsoring students for internships and similar

Great reply, and I agree that Career Services should be lending a helping hand to kids whose families can't help them navigate the internship and first-job processes. I'd also add, though, that OP's focus on absolute earnings is myopic. I'm one of the FGLI folks from earlier in the thread, and I absolutely earn less now than some of my peers who were able to pursue a different path coming out of undergraduate. Either they took low-paid but prestigious jobs, or had family connections, or were just better than I was in some way.

But I'm not jealous. In one generation, I moved from working class to solidly middle class. My kids are growing up never worrying about food, never feeling like they need to get a job in their teens to help support the family, and able to focus on their own educations. I can help my own parents, siblings, and nieces/nephews, if they need it.

Yes, you can look at my income and say "Wow, she makes less as a FGLI graduate than someone who came in already wealthy" or you can look at my income and say "Wow, she changed the entire trajectory of her life and the lives of her extended family in four years."

I know which one I'm focused on.

[Anonymous]

I thought I’d add to this discussion. If you have no intentions of immediately going to graduate school, and are just applying to jobs (including ones that pay well right out of undergrad), the following aspects of a student play no part in hiring at my employer:

-How many majors, minors & certificates a student has; one major is enough
-Students’ grades in specific classes
-Whether the student’s GPA is a 3.4 vs 3.7 vs 3.95
-How long the student took to graduate from college
-How many colleges the student attended
-How many online classes the student took


That is in no way an exhaustive list.

At my employer, campus hires & people applying fresh out of undergrad, a minimum GPA of 3.0 is required to get your resumé read by a human, regardless of which school you attended. Our online application asks for it. We do request all transcripts and verify that the GPA listed is correct once we’ve gotten down to a smaller candidate pool.

Also, campus hires & new grads must have graduated from a regionally accredited, non-profit college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I thought I’d add to this discussion. If you have no intentions of immediately going to graduate school, and are just applying to jobs (including ones that pay well right out of undergrad), the following aspects of a student play no part in hiring at my employer:

-How many majors, minors & certificates a student has; one major is enough
-Students’ grades in specific classes
-Whether the student’s GPA is a 3.4 vs 3.7 vs 3.95
-How long the student took to graduate from college
-How many colleges the student attended
-How many online classes the student took


That is in no way an exhaustive list.

At my employer, campus hires & people applying fresh out of undergrad, a minimum GPA of 3.0 is required to get your resumé read by a human, regardless of which school you attended. Our online application asks for it. We do request all transcripts and verify that the GPA listed is correct once we’ve gotten down to a smaller candidate pool.

Also, campus hires & new grads must have graduated from a regionally accredited, non-profit college.

I think your list depends on the employer.

There are companies that do look at GPA (not just a minimum 3.0), majors and minors, and certificates, particularly in the STEM fields.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought I’d add to this discussion. If you have no intentions of immediately going to graduate school, and are just applying to jobs (including ones that pay well right out of undergrad), the following aspects of a student play no part in hiring at my employer:

-How many majors, minors & certificates a student has; one major is enough
-Students’ grades in specific classes
-Whether the student’s GPA is a 3.4 vs 3.7 vs 3.95
-How long the student took to graduate from college
-How many colleges the student attended
-How many online classes the student took


That is in no way an exhaustive list.

At my employer, campus hires & people applying fresh out of undergrad, a minimum GPA of 3.0 is required to get your resumé read by a human, regardless of which school you attended. Our online application asks for it. We do request all transcripts and verify that the GPA listed is correct once we’ve gotten down to a smaller candidate pool.

Also, campus hires & new grads must have graduated from a regionally accredited, non-profit college.

I think your list depends on the employer.

There are companies that do look at GPA (not just a minimum 3.0), majors and minors, and certificates, particularly in the STEM fields.

Tech companies do skills testing for technical roles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Key point: these students are of lower caliber because they are beneficiaries of affirmative action/preferences. Why would anyone be surprised they don’t perform as well? The gap is likely even bigger than reported in that the FGLI kids may have less rigorous majors (think African American studies vs STEM)

No. The African American studies department at my elite university was mostly wealthy and UMC black students with college educated (oftentimes graduate-school educated) parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids from lower economic backgrounds have not had the benefit of private tutoring and elite HS rigor to prepare them for college hence the lower GPA.

They may not have been held to the same academic standards as an elite HS. They probably know cheating is not ok but if everyone you know does it in school, how to you really understand the impact?

For jobs, I think you need to take out the jobs that we’re gotten through connections. Lower income kids don’t have a pipeline into a high paying job interview.

A lower GPA in college is not some sign of a lack of preparation. Unless you're going to grad school nobody gives two shakes about your GPA. Lower income students tend to do work study, outside jobs and a dozen other hustles to get through. That takes a lot of time away from study groups and study time. And let's remember that at any college a 3.5 is still cum laude. Nobody should expect high school type grades in college.Great if you get them, but again, who ever asks unless you're doing grad school. Studies have been done on Fortune 500 CEOs and more than 50% not only went to minor colleges, they also reported being B students at best. And yes, PAID internships are a deal breaker, along with access to summer housing.

That's huge. When I went to school, internships were largely unpaid and my parents didn't live anywhere near a major metro-area. I literally could not have afforded an internship. The switch to paid internships is an enormous plus for people who can't just live in NYC,DC,SF... unpaid for a summer

[Anonymous]

I was a first gen college student, and did OK but not as well as many others. Some of the big defining moments were around 3rd year in college, when a lot of kids used the summer to do some kind of special program in our field that was very expensive. I managed to do a similar program, but a much lesser one than what the rich kids went to, and that single program catapulted quite a few of them to success in the field, while my lesser program ended up doing nothing for me because I just didn't learn as much. Unfortunately, there are many fields of study where the things you do outside of school are as important as any class you can take or grade you can get, and the kids without the money to do those things are at a significant disadvantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids from lower economic backgrounds have not had the benefit of private tutoring and elite HS rigor to prepare them for college hence the lower GPA.

They may not have been held to the same academic standards as an elite HS. They probably know cheating is not ok but if everyone you know does it in school, how to you really understand the impact?

For jobs, I think you need to take out the jobs that we’re gotten through connections. Lower income kids don’t have a pipeline into a high paying job interview.

A lower GPA in college is not some sign of a lack of preparation. Unless you're going to grad school nobody gives two shakes about your GPA. Lower income students tend to do work study, outside jobs and a dozen other hustles to get through. That takes a lot of time away from study groups and study time. And let's remember that at any college a 3.5 is still cum laude. Nobody should expect high school type grades in college.Great if you get them, but again, who ever asks unless you're doing grad school. Studies have been done on Fortune 500 CEOs and more than 50% not only went to minor colleges, they also reported being B students at best. And yes, PAID internships are a deal breaker, along with access to summer housing.

That's huge. When I went to school, internships were largely unpaid and my parents didn't live anywhere near a major metro-area. I literally could not have afforded an internship. The switch to paid internships is an enormous plus for people who can't just live in NYC,DC,SF... unpaid for a summer

+100

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

DP. The maximum pell grant for the 2023-2024 school year is only $7,395/year. And that is for kids from the absolute neediest families; like, families with an HHI of $39k, for example. I assume the amount was much lower than $7,395 when the poster you’re replying to was in undergrad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought I’d add to this discussion. If you have no intentions of immediately going to graduate school, and are just applying to jobs (including ones that pay well right out of undergrad), the following aspects of a student play no part in hiring at my employer:

-How many majors, minors & certificates a student has; one major is enough
-Students’ grades in specific classes
-Whether the student’s GPA is a 3.4 vs 3.7 vs 3.95
-How long the student took to graduate from college
-How many colleges the student attended
-How many online classes the student took


That is in no way an exhaustive list.

At my employer, campus hires & people applying fresh out of undergrad, a minimum GPA of 3.0 is required to get your resumé read by a human, regardless of which school you attended. Our online application asks for it. We do request all transcripts and verify that the GPA listed is correct once we’ve gotten down to a smaller candidate pool.

Also, campus hires & new grads must have graduated from a regionally accredited, non-profit college.

I think your list depends on the employer.

There are companies that do look at GPA (not just a minimum 3.0), majors and minors, and certificates, particularly in the STEM fields.

Tech companies do skills testing for technical roles.

Yes, but some also look at GPAs and where you went to school.

I worked for a MAANG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the poors at my prestigious university. I lived at home and spent 3.5 hours per day in transit, and had 2 part time jobs. I had a decent GPA but could have done better if l didn’t have to commute and work. Don’t just assume those lower GPAs signal not having a high level of talent, preparation or work ethic.

How come the school or Pell grants did not cover your room and board?

The idea that you think Pell grants are big enough to cover a significant fraction of the cost of room and board at a prestigious university suggests that you aren’t in the United States, and that you didn’t even read the cheat sheet for trolls. You need to retake the troll class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There was a senior survey at Princeton which had a breakdown for GPA across income levels, first-gen status, etc: https://projects.dailyprincetonian.com/senior-survey-2022/academics.html

50% of first-gen students had a 3.6 GPA or higher, compared to 69% of non-first gen students.

The lowest income students by family household (below 40K) at Princeton had an average GPA of a 3.5, while the highest income students had a 3.72.

32% of the lowest income students reported cheating on an assignment or exam, compared to 21% of students overall.

Only 49% of students on financial aid reported having a job lined up for graduation, compared to 62% of those not on FA. Expected income for those on FA was 84K one year after graduating, compared to 124K for those not on FA. Students on all household income levels below 125K reported expected earnings under 84K, while all those over that level reported at least 115K.

These are considerable gaps. If higher ed is supposed to be the great equalizer, why are Princeton grads seeing such discrepancies corresponding with their background?

US schools have become a little club for the rich and the connected, with a few token minorities to cover their tracks.

It's not an inspiring scene.