Why do donut hole families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Our earnings would be lower elsewhere. It is also not realistic to think we could just move somewhere else and find employment. You seem to think this income implies a luxury lifestyle in NYC - we live in an outer borough, commute an hour to work in public transport, and send our kids to NYC public schools. Some people live in NY because they come from NY. I think you are very invested in the narrative that all donut hole families are whiners or have done something wrong. This makes you seem very self-righteous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


If we earn 225k in NYC, do you really think that we can save enough for private college by skipping luxury cars? We don't even have a frigging car! Maybe if we lived in Nebraska.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

That's not true. College costs have increased so much families can't hope to deny themselves every luxury to meet that cost. We're fortunate that we can afford any college, but most people can't, even if they tighten their belt.

Please don't be so ignorant and smug.

Once again, you choose to live in NYC. I know it's expensive and $225K isn't much there. But that is a choice you make. You could job search and move to somewhere with a lower COL (literally anywhere except SF/Boston would be less)

I don't live where I grew up. I choose to move elsewhere. I know how expensive NYC is---it's ridiculous. However, the fact is you still choose to stay there. That's a choice you made and that means you have to adjust to live with the choices. However, you live in NY state, where there are how many SUNY schools? All very affordable schools, most ~ $25K, all in. So if anything, you have more good instate schools to choose from than any other state. Kid gets a job and earns $10K/year to contribute to college, takes $5.5K federal loans, and parents contribute $10-15K per year. An affordable way to do college with minimal debt. You could even do it for less by choosing a school that you commute to from home, if that's what fits your family finances.

Our kids WILL go to SUNY schools and I'm not complaining about being donut hole. I'm objecting to being criticized for not having the savings to pay 80k/ year for college! I would love to know where YOU fall in this spectrum. Are you rich and criticizing people who have less than you? Poor and criticizing people who have more? Or donut hole yourself and judging everyone who doesn't do things exactly the way you do? Something tells me it's the latter... Ding Ding!!!!!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it’s insane that our $250K family did not get 1 penny FA for a $60K/year school.

We were also not always $250K family, we were closer to $160/year, then $180K for a few years. Plus the $250 includes one of us having 2 jobs.

My H is a cop and I was a GS-13 most our lives so we could not really save that much.

Well if you still lived as if you earned $160K/year, you could cash flow the $80K/year with the extra. You could have chosen to save the increases in income for college (or at least part of it).

We do still love the $160k/year life.

$250-$160= $90K - taxes, SS, etc = $45K/year.

Two kids in college = $40K/year/kid = $80K. So we are still in the hole $35K/year.

Well obviously you can’t afford to cash flow college. Who can?? That’s why “college fund” is a term that everyone in America understands what it means.

So explain to me how I would have "saved for college" when our HHI was $120? because it was not $250 our whole lives it literally took 25 years to get to that. $160 wasn't much better becasue we moved out of our apartment and had day care.

So are you saying just don't buy a house that's a luxury? Don't get promotions because you can't get FA? explain to me how I sace making $120 or even $160?

You’re saying that you were saving $0/mo for college when you were making $120k? Not even an extra $50/mo in a 529?? 😮

I was saving for a house. I lived in a group home. then I bought a home with 20% down.

Did somebody gift you a home, do you not know how this works in the US? You think i owned a house and had kids at 1st?

Nope I bought a house for $485k. I put $100/mo in 529 even when saving for that down payment (which was small—had PMI then re-fied to get rid of it). We bought our first house when our oldest kid was 3.

I just don’t buy you were living so hand to mouth on $120k you couldn’t set up a 529. It’s a silly thing to say.

[Anonymous]

Because not all donut hole families can afford in-state options. I don’t think a family that can afford a state school but can’t afford an elite private is a donut hole family. Growing up with a teacher and a factory worker for parents, my family didn’t quality for most aid, but didn’t have enough to save and pay for all of college either. I got a lot of scholarships, loans and work study /co-op money to augment what my family was able to contribute.

Let me explain another way -
A woman who has to quit working because she can’t afford childcare on her salary - even just paying a neighbor or a family member to watch her kid - is a donut hole family.

A woman who complains she can’t afford an English speaking nanny with a masters degree and Montessori preschool in her salary but CAN afford an in-home daycare or church based center is NOT a donut hole family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:A lot of us got into the financial position to be in the donut hole by doing "everything right" being top students all through school, getting into a highly selective college, graduating, working for years to move up the corporate ladder, saving for college every month since our kids got out of daycare, provide the enrichment/tutoring/house in a top school district that allowed our kids to do well enough to get into a top college. But now we can't afford to send them to the top college on the level that we attended.

I know, cry me a river. It's such a deeply privileged sob story.

This. My college was expensive at about $100K for 4 years. To send my kid there now, it's $400K.

You are not the sharpest tool if you send your kid to a school that costs 100k/yr. This is like buying a Birkin bag and complaining how expensive handbags are these days.

I agree, only idiots send their kids to Stanford

Well they are idiots if they can't afford Stanford. Taking out $200K in loans for an undergrad degree is not smart, no matter where it is. Someone smart enough to get into Stanford should understand that

Why are you assuming that everyone is taking out loans to send their kids to college? What's your objective here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Because not all donut hole families can afford in-state options. I don’t think a family that can afford a state school but can’t afford an elite private is a donut hole family. Growing up with a teacher and a factory worker for parents, my family didn’t quality for most aid, but didn’t have enough to save and pay for all of college either. I got a lot of scholarships, loans and work study /co-op money to augment what my family was able to contribute.

Let me explain another way -
A woman who has to quit working because she can’t afford childcare on her salary - even just paying a neighbor or a family member to watch her kid - is a donut hole family.

A woman who complains she can’t afford an English speaking nanny with a masters degree and Montessori preschool in her salary but CAN afford an in-home daycare or church based center is NOT a donut hole family.

I bet your family would qualify for aid today. That's the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

Yes. The problem is that the kid and their parent have stars in their eyes for a Lambo school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

I'm sorry but this statement is out of touch (and I'm not donut hole). How can you lump everyone (people you do not know) into a category that assumes they recklessly indulged. Sure, there are people like this - but to assume anyone without resources to pay for college is in this category is ludicrous. Most of this country cannot afford to pay for private universities without taking out loans.

This the way it has always been. Now people think they are entitled to it.

This! My parents couldn’t afford a T50 private school when I graduated HS in 2005. I also didn’t get anywhere approaching a full ride anywhere. So I went to a state school. So freaking what??

Where did u go?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Our earnings would be lower elsewhere. It is also not realistic to think we could just move somewhere else and find employment. You seem to think this income implies a luxury lifestyle in NYC - we live in an outer borough, commute an hour to work in public transport, and send our kids to NYC public schools. Some people live in NY because they come from NY. I think you are very invested in the narrative that all donut hole families are whiners or have done something wrong. This makes you seem very self-righteous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


If we earn 225k in NYC, do you really think that we can save enough for private college by skipping luxury cars? We don't even have a frigging car! Maybe if we lived in Nebraska.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

That's not true. College costs have increased so much families can't hope to deny themselves every luxury to meet that cost. We're fortunate that we can afford any college, but most people can't, even if they tighten their belt.

Please don't be so ignorant and smug.

Once again, you choose to live in NYC. I know it's expensive and $225K isn't much there. But that is a choice you make. You could job search and move to somewhere with a lower COL (literally anywhere except SF/Boston would be less)

Are you New Yorkers being charged extra money to use the quoting features incorrectly? And how much more? Can we set up a GoFundMe for you?

Oh you're so funny. Why aren't you writing for SNL? You're wasting your talents on this silly chat board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Uh huh. In Germany they don’t have a “Lambo” of education. Everyone goes to the Honda of education and it’s fine.

Not quite correct. There are definitely universities that are better than others (Technische Uni and LMU in Munich come to mind), though I don’t think any are terrible. You get in based on your GPA and there are clear cuts for who gets in. German GPAs aren’t as inflated though, and there are exit exams that are standardized for each state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Uh huh. In Germany they don’t have a “Lambo” of education. Everyone goes to the Honda of education and it’s fine.

Not quite correct. There are definitely universities that are better than others (Technische Uni and LMU in Munich come to mind), though I don’t think any are terrible. You get in based on your GPA and there are clear cuts for who gets in. German GPAs aren’t as inflated though, and there are exit exams that are standardized for each state.

Have you ever visited the campus? And you think they are competing for the same tier of all star faculty?

[Anonymous]

Because cash flow

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The donut hole is a myth that poor savers tell themselves. Decisions have consequences. Buying a larger house or nicer car - spending more for vacations and fancy summer camps are all decisions.

College costs are not unexpected. You have nearly two decades to save.

Plus, you don’t have to save for the most expensive college. All of you who consider yourselves middle class- that means kids stay at home and go to college or they go to an instate college. That is what middle class parents have done for generations. Paying the full amount for high end tuitions for private schools are for rich families not yours.

But that's the problem, college expenses have become exploitative for most family budgets. As PP suggests, your entire adult life you're now supposed to be either saving for college or paying off your loans. It's basically become a third layer of taxation in addition to state and federal.

College costs are INDEFENSIBLE here in the US. No other country in the world has such expensive university education, and yet many have excellent institutions. It IS exploitative.

It's like the cost of healthcare in this country. It does not need to be that high! Other wealthy nations do it for much less.

But here capitalism rules, the federal government has very little regulatory control compared to other countries... and we are left with this. Very little upward mobility in an erstwhile upwardly mobile country.

So you're all right where universities want you, suckers: bickering amongst yourselves, and forgetting that you are all being exploited BY THEM.

+1

Only in the US would people compare a university education with a luxury car.

Because only in the US do people feel entitled to the tippy top ranked universities for their kids, no matter what.
Most of Europe is not attending Cambridge or Oxford for undergrad. They are attending a nearby local university. Their kid was "tracked for college" sometime around 12/13 yo and if they do well on the testing that day, they may not be eligible for a STEM major 5 years later. Nobody is saying you can't get an education. We literally have hundreds of great choices, many offering merit. There are ways to attend college for minimal costs, you just wont attend a Top tier university. Just like much of Europe does not attend a Top tier university for their undergrad.

Wait a sec here. Most of the UK doesn't go to Oxbridge because they can't get in, not because they can't pay! We are talking about getting in to schools you can't pay for. In France for example, if you get into Polytechnique (the top engineering school), your tuition bill can be covered by military service following your studies, or in most cases, your first employer pays off your bill as part of the job offer. You rarely hear about someone in France qualifying for one of these schools and not going because they can't afford it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's because it just feels unfair to people that if they were richer or poorer, their kids might have more options. It isn't necessarily unfair, or maybe it is, but this is how people feel. I also think that many donut hole families have parents who attended top private universities at a time when they were more affordable and it is a shock that their kids can't do the same, even though they have been saving for years. We are not a donut hole family, so this is just my guess as to how people feel.

Yes. It's if we were just a little bit poorer we could have gone to pretty much any school with financial aid and not have the very huge loans required to go to those private, selective LAC or ivy type colleges. Add pain to the fact that in-state schools in VA have been increasingly more difficult to get into. So the options are very limited for donut hole VA families.

There is less opportunity because aid for out of state is very limited to non-existent and need-blind admissions don't apply and don't matter.

So as a kid I was told--you can only apply in-state even though the grade/sat scores/ECs likely would have made me very competitive for the Ivies, Hopkins, Duke, etc. UVA had a quota on my NoVA high school and I was WL, along with many many other kids in the top of their HS classes.. Insult to injury further is UVA really courted out of state applicants.

So--the donut hole families work their whole lives saving saving saving and not taking those vacations, not spending on fancy cars, doing everything right---yet then all of those earnings are washed out by putting 2-3 kids full pay through college.

I saw the direct contrast with my spouse and my neighbor that grew up a bit poorer than I did (not donut holes) and they attended Hopkins and an Ivy and came out owing nothing due to the aid they were qualified for and received. Meanwhile, I worked a part-time job while attending my state university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Complain about being a donut hole family? When there are thousands of colleges that could work between in state options and merit aid at lower tier privates and other oos public’s?l is it bc ivies and top 25 are not options?

Its because their kids don't get judged on their ability but on their parental assets and can't attend schools they are eligible for or want to attend. Unless parents are willing to sacrifice their hard earned savings and risk retirement , kids often can't afford anything but community college or some regional state campus with merit.

A true donut hole family should be able to afford $20-30K/year with savings and cashflow. That's well more than CC. Plenty of choices if you just try rather than complaining "we can't afford anything"

You still don't get it. Imagine a brilliant STEM student who already got into Stanford or MIT. But they end up going to a much lower ranked school ONLY because their family is too "rich" for FA and too poor to pay full ride. There's something wrong with that picture.

Why is there something wrong with that picture?!?!?

If kid is so smart, they will do just fine elsewhere and likely get grad degree from Stanford/mit. Why are they so entitled?

Plenty of people make sacrifices for everything. Nobody is saying they can’t get a degree