Which of the T20 schools have the least driven, intense, goal-oriented students?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This thread makes me think l hope my kid chooses to go to school in Canada, where I’m from originally. Much easier to get into a great school, and pretty much everyone has a great time. Not a pressure cooker. (I hope it’s still like that!!)

Working hard at a academic pursuits is a great time for some of these students. Some of them like it. They are are finally in an environment where being a nerd is an asset instead of a liability.

This. I’m having a hard time with this thread. College is supposed to be for studying. OP seems to want the “top credentials” for their kid, with none of the effort.

OP I’m sure your kid can find an easy major and the stoner crowd, and enjoy some Gentleman’s Cs.

OP here. This is a little mean, since you’re responding to me pointedly while relying on thread drift for your facts. OP’s *KID* sought out and is already attending a top school. There are no Cs. Kid just wants to socialize more than once a month and locate similar friends who accept a 93 instead of pulling all-nighters for the 96.5 Tracy Flick. Did she have fun?

It is instructive that no one has first- or second-hand experience with a objectively top school that has a fun campus vibe.

What my little nerd considers fun does not sound like it would be fun for your DC. The vast majority of time is spent in academics which your DC calls grinding which I am assuming is a negative characterization for your DC.

DC blows off steam in some non academic club activities but also has an academic club and a part time job in an academic department. But there is not loads of time for parties or travel or things a lot of college kids do for fun. DC is happy but I don't think it is for everyone.

You do realize that what OP is describing is something that deeply concerns many T20 professors? This isn’t coming out of the blue.

OP is not talking about a kid who wants to attend drunken frat parties every weekend. She’s talking about a kid who wants dormmates who are willing to stay up late debating Nussbaum versus Butler and possibly risk getting a 95 versus a 97 because they talked philosophy rather than making one more flashcard.

ok, sure.

Too funny.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it’s a real problem. You aren’t going to find a T20 that isn’t largely populated by Tracy Flicks. Sorry.

Especially nowadays given what it takes to get into a t 20. Might have been different 25 years ago

25 years ago you could get the disorganized geniuses who walked into the SATs and got 1600 without studying and who kept up a 3.7 or so GPA by never doing the homework but acing the tests. Perfect and intense executive function wasn’t a skill set universally required for admissions back then. But the admissions have changed to essentially remove the quirky geniuses from the student population, because you are only getting into a T20 if you have the executive functioning skills of a mid-career project manager. Hence schools populated almost entirely by Tracy Flicks. Even the athletes are Tracy Flicks. It’s kind of bizarre.

This whole notion that there were all these "disorganized geniuses " in earlier years, and kids now are just well organized with the "geniuses" getting shut out is silly. Back in my day 1600 was an unheard of score. Kids who did well were likely natural test takers with parents who valued education and/or in good schools. We weren't necessarily smarter than kids who didn't score as well. You didn't find these natural Good Will Hunting " geniuses laying about. That is just nonsense. Kids these days are working hard to demonstrate their intellect, artistic talent and work ethic. And, competition is tough. It's not like the "true geniuses" are getting shut out by average bureaucrats. In fact, back in the day, a lot more spaces were going to legacy and connected. Now, kids are submitting evidence of far more course rigor than we had plus talents, etc

I knew multiple kids who got 1580 and 1600 without studying or prepping in the 1980s.

Suuuuuure. In 85-86 only 9 out of 1.7 million got a 1600, but you knew at least half of them, right? I was NM in '88. Very few scored in upper 1500s, and they had excellent preparation in their schooling and support at home. They were also excellent students for the most part. Sure I know some high scorers who didn't organize their time well at school and could have gotten better grades. I was one of them! But this whole notion of "old days" "geniuses " vs. today's "pencil pushers" is just completely bogus. Sure kids are working harder. Because the competition is tougher -- with more applicants for limited spaces.

So defensive.

Nope. Remember. I am a high scorer from the old days, without prep even, so I have nothing to gain by calling out your "alternative facts."

Deflecting doesn't change that your statement was bogus with fake data.

NP, you are so defensive and unpleasant.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

DC also a freshman at Brown and really enjoying it. Chose Brown specifically for the fit after a fairly tough and competitive HS experience at a top boarding school. For them, it is a good mix of being around self-motivated kids but not a high stress atmosphere. They have an interesting mix of friends, but hasn’t experienced the ones that are into discussing the meaning of life. They do enjoy the social life and seem to have a pretty wide range of social activities from campus parties to off campus clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

DC also a freshman at Brown and really enjoying it. Chose Brown specifically for the fit after a fairly tough and competitive HS experience at a top boarding school. For them, it is a good mix of being around self-motivated kids but not a high stress atmosphere. They have an interesting mix of friends, but hasn’t experienced the ones that are into discussing the meaning of life. They do enjoy the social life and seem to have a pretty wide range of social activities from campus parties to off campus clubs.

Different kids will have different expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

DC also a freshman at Brown and really enjoying it. Chose Brown specifically for the fit after a fairly tough and competitive HS experience at a top boarding school. For them, it is a good mix of being around self-motivated kids but not a high stress atmosphere. They have an interesting mix of friends, but hasn’t experienced the ones that are into discussing the meaning of life. They do enjoy the social life and seem to have a pretty wide range of social activities from campus parties to off campus clubs.

Different kids will have different expectations.

Sure. But if you head off to MIT for a rocking good party time... your expectations are misguided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

Have a Sophomore at Brown. Seems to be going to plenty of parties. Was at Family Weekend last weekend and friends all did homework on Friday night. Studies a lot more than HS. Pre-med. Says STEM friends all study a lot. That said, having a great time and very happy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

DC also a freshman at Brown and really enjoying it. Chose Brown specifically for the fit after a fairly tough and competitive HS experience at a top boarding school. For them, it is a good mix of being around self-motivated kids but not a high stress atmosphere. They have an interesting mix of friends, but hasn’t experienced the ones that are into discussing the meaning of life. They do enjoy the social life and seem to have a pretty wide range of social activities from campus parties to off campus clubs.

Different kids will have different expectations.

Of course. This is PP You are responding to. Since OP is not naming the current school, I’m just providing another perspective.

[Anonymous]

I think the problem stems from the fact that top schools don’t really have “different” kids anymore, in the sense that to get in all of these non-hooked kids have long since become conformist and uniform in their supposed “exceptionality”: they forewent sleep throughout high school, spent all of their time on hoop-jumping activities and accomplishments, are overwhelmingly Type-A, and have long since developed sharp elbows to secure “leadership” positions in clubs or anything else they are continuously plotting to be involved in. Put them all together in a college, and it sounds like the pits of Dante’s Inferno to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

Have a Sophomore at Brown. Seems to be going to plenty of parties. Was at Family Weekend last weekend and friends all did homework on Friday night. Studies a lot more than HS. Pre-med. Says STEM friends all study a lot. That said, having a great time and very happy.

Friends staying in to do homework on Friday night does sound quite unfun.

[Anonymous]

DC is in their second year at Tufts and has a good work-fun balance and describes their peers as similar (there is a continent of kids who don’t go out much, but it sounds like they are still joining clubs and having fun, just not in the traditional “partying” sense). My niece at UVA says the same (in fact, she goes out over half the nights of the week!), and DC’s best friend from HS is having a very good time at Wesleyan. I know, I know, none of these are “T20” 🙄.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem stems from the fact that top schools don’t really have “different” kids anymore, in the sense that to get in all of these non-hooked kids have long since become conformist and uniform in their supposed “exceptionality”: they forewent sleep throughout high school, spent all of their time on hoop-jumping activities and accomplishments, are overwhelmingly Type-A, and have long since developed sharp elbows to secure “leadership” positions in clubs or anything else they are continuously plotting to be involved in. Put them all together in a college, and it sounds like the pits of Dante’s Inferno to me.

Truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC is a first year at Brown. Very, very smart and reasonably social kids. School tends to attract authentically intellectually curious types. Quirky in a good way types. Brown is more STEM focused (at > 50%) than it was even 10 years ago. Pragmatically pre-professional. Strong pipeline to Silicon Valley, which surprises people with an 80s and 90s frame of reference. Rigor and great professors without taking itself too seriously. Lots of late night “why are we here” and “is there any true altruism” discussions. Hip, chic social vibe which is right for DC but may not be for everyone. Most refreshing aspect of kids I’ve met via DC is that they generally are not box checker types and a large portion deliberately chose Brown via ED (over other top schools) even if they were deferred ED but admitted RD.

I know some current Brown students that are disappointed with the social life. This kinda explains why.

How so? How are they disappointed with the social life? What were they expecting and what are they actually experiencing? Genuine question.

Less parties there than a schools their friends are attending.

DC also a freshman at Brown and really enjoying it. Chose Brown specifically for the fit after a fairly tough and competitive HS experience at a top boarding school. For them, it is a good mix of being around self-motivated kids but not a high stress atmosphere. They have an interesting mix of friends, but hasn’t experienced the ones that are into discussing the meaning of life. They do enjoy the social life and seem to have a pretty wide range of social activities from campus parties to off campus clubs.

Different kids will have different expectations.

Sure. But if you head off to MIT for a rocking good party time... your expectations are misguided.

On the other hand… the only actual line of coke I’ve ever seen in real life was at the Delta Psi fraternity house at MIT. So, even MIT has some partiers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the problem stems from the fact that top schools don’t really have “different” kids anymore, in the sense that to get in all of these non-hooked kids have long since become conformist and uniform in their supposed “exceptionality”: they forewent sleep throughout high school, spent all of their time on hoop-jumping activities and accomplishments, are overwhelmingly Type-A, and have long since developed sharp elbows to secure “leadership” positions in clubs or anything else they are continuously plotting to be involved in. Put them all together in a college, and it sounds like the pits of Dante’s Inferno to me.

Huh? Do you base this on anything tangible? At the ones my kid toured and the one she chose, it seems the exact opposite. They have an array of kids who really excel in different areas and are deep thinkers. Sure, not everyone, there may be a some Chets knocking around (sorry kids named Chet). Mine is meeting some really interesting people. She does invest in her classes and her art and is social but not into party culture and likes it that way. The students largely seem interested in their academic experience, not elbowing ahead or one more accolade.

But, every school is different, and some do have a more competitive culture. Still, nothing seems to suggest conformist or uniform or hoop jumping.

This just sounds kind of like sour grapes really.

[Anonymous]

Surprised nobody has mentioned Notre Dame here, which of course is rigorous, but tends to have students who are more collaborative than competitive. Plus the focus on "making the world a better place" and football helps bring community together. My son is bright, but not necessarily a type A and found a group of friends with varying levels of intensity.