Should coaches complain if refs make a mistake?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the Father's Day tournament in Fairfax, a goalie picked up the ball then put it down to kick it, and the ref told him he couldn't do that and had him pick it up again. Should the coach complain to the tournament about this ref?

Calm down Karen!

Yeah, nothing like countering nosiness bull with bossiness, little millenna-baby. Any other orders on how we should live before you go back to whining about your student debt, return to office, and lack of home equity?

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by complain? Yell at the coach in the middle of a game? No.
If you mean should the coach talk to the ref afterwards to explain rules he or she might have gotten wrong or talk to the referee director later, yes.

DC has played numerous games where the refs clearly did not understand basic rules - at the age when they had build out lines and beyond. I'm not talking about things in a gray area where the ref just makes a bad call. It's more about like refs who just don't seem to get how offsides works and don't call it ever, and refs who don't understand what happens when there is a foul inside the box, or that goalies can't pick up the ball with their hands on a pass back.

It was so bad one game that the coach called a supervisor over to observe and the supervisor came and took the ref out of the game and explained some of the rules. The ref wasn't fired but did a better job the rest of the game. Win for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This makes no sense
If a goalie possesses the ball from play:
On a pass back they cannot use hands
On a goal kick they must play to another player (2 touch rule)
On anything else they can dribble the ball bounce it etc

The build out rule does not affect how the keeper can play the ball.

The Ref in question either made a mistake or some th info else occurred

Right but it does affect when the opponent can cross the build out line. So let's take an example....Shot on goal. The GK catches it. Opponent must retreat to the build out line. No question. The keeper drops it to the ground to play with his feet. Does the opponent have to retreat to the build out line? If no, then there is no problem. If yes, then there is a problem.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the Father's Day tournament in Fairfax, a goalie picked up the ball then put it down to kick it, and the ref told him he couldn't do that and had him pick it up again. Should the coach complain to the tournament about this ref?

So based on your post in the other thread, this was a U10 game, which means they play with build out lines. Build out lines rules are not all clear. I am a referee and I haven't done a game with build out lines for a bit, in general, when a GK has possession of the ball, the other team has to retreat beyond the build out line. The opponent came press the ball once the GK plays the ball. Build out line rules doesn't talk about what "playing the ball" means. Does it mean once the GK puts it on the ground? I don't know. If a referee was asking the GK to throw it or roll it, I think that's OK. If the GK placed it on the ground and quickly passed it to a teammate, I think that's OK too, but remember drop kicks are not allowed either, so the GK can't drop it and kick it on the bounce. So as much as I hate to defend RSD if he was the culprit, I can see where requesting the GK to throw or roll the ball is OK. Again, I'm sure you can find plenty of referees that 100% agree with you.

I was most definitely not the culprit.

I understand the frustration on whether the GK can put the ball down and play it himself/herself. I haven't found a reason why not, as long as the ball isn't bouncing (which would be a drop kick). I think this site backs me up: "Once the goalkeeper releases possession with their hands, the opposing team may cross the build out line and resume normal play."

http://www.folsomreferees.org/buildoutline/

This U.S. Youth Soccer presentation says the goalkeeper can "pass, throw or roll the ball back into play." I don't see a distinction between "rolling" the ball and setting it down. I wouldn't want to be the one to argue whether the ball "rolled" an inch or so after being "set down."

https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/1/6/897090_eng-october2017pdi.pdf

The intent of the buildout line is to make kids play out of the back. Having seen a lot of U-9 games in which one team just packed players around the box, swiped the goal kick and scored, I think it's progress. Now young defenders have a little bit of breathing room.

The "no punting" rule is indeed in part to prevent headers. It's actually a little frustrating at U-11 to have punts bounce all over the midfield while players figure out how to deal with the ball if they can't head it, so I wouldn't mind holding off on punting until U-12.

Both rules are basically designed to that everyone is involved in the action. If you just have forwards pressing defenders, the action is stuck there. And before the ban on punts, you'd see someone punt the length of the field to the other keeper while the parents go "YEEAAAAAHH! GREAT KICK!" With the BOL and the ban on punts, you have more of a chance of the ball getting into the midfield and making players sort it out from there.

Whether they accomplish what they're trying to accomplish is subject to debate. But that's the idea.

As to whether coaches should complain -- ideally, ask the ref about it in a quiet moment when the ref is near the sideline. Don't challenge the ref's authority and credibility by yelling across the field over something that's frankly rather trivial. The ref is either going to double down on an incorrect reading of the Laws/rules or look less authoritative, which could lead to the ref losing control and winding up with something happening that's much worse than whether the keeper can roll the ball out.

And coaches are going to be wrong about 90% of the time -- many of them have not kept up to speed on the nuances of the changes IFAB has made in the last few years. (That may have been a factor in a run-in I had with a couple of coaches on Sunday -- they may disagree with my application of the Laws on handling, but they weren't even listening to my explanation.)

And to repeat -- no, that wasn't me. On Saturday, I reffed the 8 a.m. and 9:15 a.m. games on Green Acres Field #2, the one that's farthest from the parking lot. I had SYA vs. NVSC, then BRYC vs. Annandale. Two U-10 games with no significant controversy, solid sportsmanship and some pretty good play. If you think I told a GK to pick up the ball, I'm not sure where you got that impression.

Thanks for your response. I was thinking you said you were the ref on Sunday morning. I thought it was field 2, but I think there was another field farther from the lot so I'm not sure. Also, I was not suggesting complaining to the ref during the match, but whether to complain to the tournament about the ref.
If it was a Loudoun Soccer regular season match, I would have e-mailed, so they could correct the refs. I am wondering if this is something that should be done for tourney refs.

As to buildout line, my understanding is the goalie has the option of forcing the team to go back, but can play faster.
The play in question, the kid set the ball down, and we were laughing at his choice and the other team not advancing, then thought he would get called a penalty for picking it up. After the game we were told the ref told him to pick it up.
I've been told by Loudoun's head ref that the ball is live once the goalie releases the ball; it does not have to hit the ground. Technically bouncing the ball in your hands is a penalty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At what age group? If U9 or U10, let it go.

The dumb build out line at that age is not only stupid be never constantly enforced. and the rule to not allow the Keeper to punt the ball makes even less sense.

I believe the rule is that the team has to get behind the line, but if the goalie plays the ball sooner there is no foul.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the Father's Day tournament in Fairfax, a goalie picked up the ball then put it down to kick it, and the ref told him he couldn't do that and had him pick it up again. Should the coach complain to the tournament about this ref?

So based on your post in the other thread, this was a U10 game, which means they play with build out lines. Build out lines rules are not all clear. I am a referee and I haven't done a game with build out lines for a bit, in general, when a GK has possession of the ball, the other team has to retreat beyond the build out line. The opponent came press the ball once the GK plays the ball. Build out line rules doesn't talk about what "playing the ball" means. Does it mean once the GK puts it on the ground? I don't know. If a referee was asking the GK to throw it or roll it, I think that's OK. If the GK placed it on the ground and quickly passed it to a teammate, I think that's OK too, but remember drop kicks are not allowed either, so the GK can't drop it and kick it on the bounce. So as much as I hate to defend RSD if he was the culprit, I can see where requesting the GK to throw or roll the ball is OK. Again, I'm sure you can find plenty of referees that 100% agree with you.

I was most definitely not the culprit.

I understand the frustration on whether the GK can put the ball down and play it himself/herself. I haven't found a reason why not, as long as the ball isn't bouncing (which would be a drop kick). I think this site backs me up: "Once the goalkeeper releases possession with their hands, the opposing team may cross the build out line and resume normal play."

http://www.folsomreferees.org/buildoutline/

This U.S. Youth Soccer presentation says the goalkeeper can "pass, throw or roll the ball back into play." I don't see a distinction between "rolling" the ball and setting it down. I wouldn't want to be the one to argue whether the ball "rolled" an inch or so after being "set down."

https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/1/6/897090_eng-october2017pdi.pdf

The intent of the buildout line is to make kids play out of the back. Having seen a lot of U-9 games in which one team just packed players around the box, swiped the goal kick and scored, I think it's progress. Now young defenders have a little bit of breathing room.

The "no punting" rule is indeed in part to prevent headers. It's actually a little frustrating at U-11 to have punts bounce all over the midfield while players figure out how to deal with the ball if they can't head it, so I wouldn't mind holding off on punting until U-12.

Both rules are basically designed to that everyone is involved in the action. If you just have forwards pressing defenders, the action is stuck there. And before the ban on punts, you'd see someone punt the length of the field to the other keeper while the parents go "YEEAAAAAHH! GREAT KICK!" With the BOL and the ban on punts, you have more of a chance of the ball getting into the midfield and making players sort it out from there.

Whether they accomplish what they're trying to accomplish is subject to debate. But that's the idea.

As to whether coaches should complain -- ideally, ask the ref about it in a quiet moment when the ref is near the sideline. Don't challenge the ref's authority and credibility by yelling across the field over something that's frankly rather trivial. The ref is either going to double down on an incorrect reading of the Laws/rules or look less authoritative, which could lead to the ref losing control and winding up with something happening that's much worse than whether the keeper can roll the ball out.

And coaches are going to be wrong about 90% of the time -- many of them have not kept up to speed on the nuances of the changes IFAB has made in the last few years. (That may have been a factor in a run-in I had with a couple of coaches on Sunday -- they may disagree with my application of the Laws on handling, but they weren't even listening to my explanation.)

And to repeat -- no, that wasn't me. On Saturday, I reffed the 8 a.m. and 9:15 a.m. games on Green Acres Field #2, the one that's farthest from the parking lot. I had SYA vs. NVSC, then BRYC vs. Annandale. Two U-10 games with no significant controversy, solid sportsmanship and some pretty good play. If you think I told a GK to pick up the ball, I'm not sure where you got that impression.

Thanks for your response. I was thinking you said you were the ref on Sunday morning. I thought it was field 2, but I think there was another field farther from the lot so I'm not sure. Also, I was not suggesting complaining to the ref during the match, but whether to complain to the tournament about the ref.
If it was a Loudoun Soccer regular season match, I would have e-mailed, so they could correct the refs. I am wondering if this is something that should be done for tourney refs.

As to buildout line, my understanding is the goalie has the option of forcing the team to go back, but can play faster.
The play in question, the kid set the ball down, and we were laughing at his choice and the other team not advancing, then thought he would get called a penalty for picking it up. After the game we were told the ref told him to pick it up.
I've been told by Loudoun's head ref that the ball is live once the goalie releases the ball; it does not have to hit the ground. Technically bouncing the ball in your hands is a penalty.

From the Laws....

A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball with the hand(s) when:
• the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any surface (e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part of the hands or arms, except if the ball rebounds from the goalkeeper or the goalkeeper
has made a save
• holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
• bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air

Not positive of your context but bouncing the ball is not considered releasing the ball.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes no sense
If a goalie possesses the ball from play:
On a pass back they cannot use hands
On a goal kick they must play to another player (2 touch rule)
On anything else they can dribble the ball bounce it etc

The build out rule does not affect how the keeper can play the ball.

The Ref in question either made a mistake or some th info else occurred

Right but it does affect when the opponent can cross the build out line. So let's take an example....Shot on goal. The GK catches it. Opponent must retreat to the build out line. No question. The keeper drops it to the ground to play with his feet. Does the opponent have to retreat to the build out line? If no, then there is no problem. If yes, then there is a problem.

Would love if someone could answer this. Once the GL puts it on the ground to kick, is the ball live and opponents no longer have to go to the build out line?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes no sense
If a goalie possesses the ball from play:
On a pass back they cannot use hands
On a goal kick they must play to another player (2 touch rule)
On anything else they can dribble the ball bounce it etc

The build out rule does not affect how the keeper can play the ball.

The Ref in question either made a mistake or some th info else occurred

Right but it does affect when the opponent can cross the build out line. So let's take an example....Shot on goal. The GK catches it. Opponent must retreat to the build out line. No question. The keeper drops it to the ground to play with his feet. Does the opponent have to retreat to the build out line? If no, then there is no problem. If yes, then there is a problem.

Would love if someone could answer this. Once the GL puts it on the ground to kick, is the ball live and opponents no longer have to go to the build out line?

No. On goal kicks the ball actually has to be kicked and then the players can move past the build out line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes no sense
If a goalie possesses the ball from play:
On a pass back they cannot use hands
On a goal kick they must play to another player (2 touch rule)
On anything else they can dribble the ball bounce it etc

The build out rule does not affect how the keeper can play the ball.

The Ref in question either made a mistake or some th info else occurred

Right but it does affect when the opponent can cross the build out line. So let's take an example....Shot on goal. The GK catches it. Opponent must retreat to the build out line. No question. The keeper drops it to the ground to play with his feet. Does the opponent have to retreat to the build out line? If no, then there is no problem. If yes, then there is a problem.

Would love if someone could answer this. Once the GL puts it on the ground to kick, is the ball live and opponents no longer have to go to the build out line?

No. On goal kicks the ball actually has to be kicked and then the players can move past the build out line.

On goal kicks, there's no question. Opponents retreat behind build out line until the ball is kicked and clearly moves. GK has the option to play quickly and his own risk but that's beside (or is it besides?) the point. Now for a shot and the goal kicker catches....as soon as the GK has possession in his hands, the opponents must start retreating to the build out line. Again, the GK can play it quickly if he/she decides to. Once the GK puts the ball into play by throwing it or rolling it or putting the ball down to kick it, the opponents can cross press. The build out line is only when the GK has the ball in his hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WkdU1u_lUU&t=11s Actually this is from NCSL website and agrees with the above.

[Anonymous]

Coaches should complain when the ref is not enforcing rules that are designed to protect player safety. This includes not sufficiently calling fouls, not respecting the "head injury game pause" rule, etc.

[Anonymous]

I've seen U10 refs not enforce the no heading rule too. That's a cause to try to pause the game and complain.

[Anonymous]

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

RantingSoccerDad wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the Father's Day tournament in Fairfax, a goalie picked up the ball then put it down to kick it, and the ref told him he couldn't do that and had him pick it up again. Should the coach complain to the tournament about this ref?

So based on your post in the other thread, this was a U10 game, which means they play with build out lines. Build out lines rules are not all clear. I am a referee and I haven't done a game with build out lines for a bit, in general, when a GK has possession of the ball, the other team has to retreat beyond the build out line. The opponent came press the ball once the GK plays the ball. Build out line rules doesn't talk about what "playing the ball" means. Does it mean once the GK puts it on the ground? I don't know. If a referee was asking the GK to throw it or roll it, I think that's OK. If the GK placed it on the ground and quickly passed it to a teammate, I think that's OK too, but remember drop kicks are not allowed either, so the GK can't drop it and kick it on the bounce. So as much as I hate to defend RSD if he was the culprit, I can see where requesting the GK to throw or roll the ball is OK. Again, I'm sure you can find plenty of referees that 100% agree with you.

I was most definitely not the culprit.

I understand the frustration on whether the GK can put the ball down and play it himself/herself. I haven't found a reason why not, as long as the ball isn't bouncing (which would be a drop kick). I think this site backs me up: "Once the goalkeeper releases possession with their hands, the opposing team may cross the build out line and resume normal play."

http://www.folsomreferees.org/buildoutline/

This U.S. Youth Soccer presentation says the goalkeeper can "pass, throw or roll the ball back into play." I don't see a distinction between "rolling" the ball and setting it down. I wouldn't want to be the one to argue whether the ball "rolled" an inch or so after being "set down."

https://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/1/6/897090_eng-october2017pdi.pdf

The intent of the buildout line is to make kids play out of the back. Having seen a lot of U-9 games in which one team just packed players around the box, swiped the goal kick and scored, I think it's progress. Now young defenders have a little bit of breathing room.

The "no punting" rule is indeed in part to prevent headers. It's actually a little frustrating at U-11 to have punts bounce all over the midfield while players figure out how to deal with the ball if they can't head it, so I wouldn't mind holding off on punting until U-12.

Both rules are basically designed to that everyone is involved in the action. If you just have forwards pressing defenders, the action is stuck there. And before the ban on punts, you'd see someone punt the length of the field to the other keeper while the parents go "YEEAAAAAHH! GREAT KICK!" With the BOL and the ban on punts, you have more of a chance of the ball getting into the midfield and making players sort it out from there.

Whether they accomplish what they're trying to accomplish is subject to debate. But that's the idea.

As to whether coaches should complain -- ideally, ask the ref about it in a quiet moment when the ref is near the sideline. Don't challenge the ref's authority and credibility by yelling across the field over something that's frankly rather trivial. The ref is either going to double down on an incorrect reading of the Laws/rules or look less authoritative, which could lead to the ref losing control and winding up with something happening that's much worse than whether the keeper can roll the ball out.

And coaches are going to be wrong about 90% of the time -- many of them have not kept up to speed on the nuances of the changes IFAB has made in the last few years. (That may have been a factor in a run-in I had with a couple of coaches on Sunday -- they may disagree with my application of the Laws on handling, but they weren't even listening to my explanation.)

And to repeat -- no, that wasn't me. On Saturday, I reffed the 8 a.m. and 9:15 a.m. games on Green Acres Field #2, the one that's farthest from the parking lot. I had SYA vs. NVSC, then BRYC vs. Annandale. Two U-10 games with no significant controversy, solid sportsmanship and some pretty good play. If you think I told a GK to pick up the ball, I'm not sure where you got that impression.

Thanks for your response. I was thinking you said you were the ref on Sunday morning. I thought it was field 2, but I think there was another field farther from the lot so I'm not sure.

Ah -- that explains it! I'd been racking my brain, wondering if there was something I'd done that could've been construed that way.



No, I was at Stafford Drive Park on Sunday.

Legit question for RSD. After a game do you have more parents and or coaches approach you to compliment or complain? and whats the approximate divide?

[Anonymous]

The ref should not be telling players how to play. Only enforce the rule and explain infractions.

If the GK put the ball on ground then the build out line rule is that the ball is in play. Picking it back up doesn’t change that.

The rule on keeper possession is different than the rule on in play for build out rule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The ref should not be telling players how to play. Only enforce the rule and explain infractions.

If the GK put the ball on ground then the build out line rule is that the ball is in play. Picking it back up doesn’t change that.

The rule on keeper possession is different than the rule on in play for build out rule.

Correct if he puts it down then picks it back up thats technically the 2nd touch and the opposing team is free to break the build out line.

[Anonymous]

Do not complain to the tournament host about a single error by a single ref that is unlikely to have changed anything about the outcome of a U little game. Just done.