RSM or AoPS -- which one?

[Anonymous]

I have a kid who is bright but not super-advanced in AOPS now. I was skeptical (because I never saw us as an "enrichment" family) but it's really turned out well, and not the pressure cooker atmosphere that I had imagined, and the homework is motivating and fun and not too much. When I read about the RSM, it sounded much more hardcore. So take that as you will, if you just want to have your kid do "more math" and not necessarily skip 10 grades.

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What prompted the switch to RSM? We are currently with RSM and contemplating AoPS, so curious to know why? Is it because AoPS wouldn't allow your child to switch to a higher grade learning?

DP, but from what I can tell, a main difference between AoPS and RSM is how they handle the very advanced students. In AoPS, the kid tests into and takes class with a higher grade level. This can be a bit socially awkward, though, since the kid won't have a peer group of similar aged kids. A 3rd grader in 5th grade math will for the most part be in a class filled with 5th graders. RSM seems to have "advanced" grade level classes. So that same kid who would skip ahead two grades at AoPS could take the "advanced" class for their grade or one grade level up and be with other very smart kids around the same age.

So, it depends on how well your kid can function with kids who are much older, and how important the socialization aspect is for your kid.

I have not noticed any differences in kids on a social level at AoPS. While classes are primarily formed by ability level, most kids are +\- 1 grade within a target grade level of the subject. In any case classes cover a lot of content and there is limited time for socialization during class. The cases I’ve seen where kids do not seem socially engaged are mainly related to their interest level (I.e they cannot contribute much to discussions because they are behind and/or not grasping the material). There are also a few cases where kids are shy and prefer to work by themselves.

At the risk of "outing" myself, my kid is one of the ones +3 grades advanced at AoPS. We haven't experienced any social problems, but my kid certainly isn't set up to make friends there with other kids who love math. The age difference is just too large. I agree with the bolded bit, and that's kind of the point. AoPS will be great at teaching math, but it's not going to be a social outlet for your kid. RSM might be a better choice for kids who want that social outlet.

OP here, I'm not really looking for a social connection at either place--don't think it makes sense for kids who are in elementary school and have their own friend circle. The reason I'm contemplating a change is because of the teaching aspect of RSM--I'm not sure that there really is math being taught during the class time. Seems like they are given a worksheet and the teacher reviews how to answer the worksheet. So, it makes me wonder what is actually being taught. I'm hoping that AoPS isn't run the same way. For the folks who have their kids in AoPS--can you describe how math classroom teaching works?

I'll let others describe their own experiences but I can describe our classes from a teacher perspective. An AoPS class session is once per week for 1 hour and 45 minutes. There are a few slight differences between the Beast Academy series (lower level curriculum) vs the main AoPS textbooks (upper level curriculum). Beast Academy typically starts with a small core lecture on the content from the guidebooks (kids take turns doing the reading and we stop anytime questions are posed). This generally lasts up to 30 minutes. For approximately the next hour students work on problems in groups, and present solutions in front of class if they choose to. Techers circle around helping students who are stuck, or challenging students who are ahead. Problems are given based on the content/theory covered in the first 30 minutes of class and generally get more difficult to allow them to practice problem solving. The last 15-20 mins of class is spent on a tricky puzzle/game activity that engages the class and is usually on the same theme as the material covered in class. It can either be a collaborative exercise where they try to solve something together, or a mini competition/game, etc.

For the upper level classes (Prealgebra and above) the core is longer and typically lasts up to an hour (sometimes a bit more depending on how challenging/theoretical the material is, as well as the pace the particular class can handle). Unlike Beast Academy, there is no reading done in class, kids are expected to do the reading assignments before class to prepare. The core involves the teacher first introducing the topic/theory as well as working through some problems on the board which highlight that theory. We try to minimize "lecturing" and instead use an inquiry approach where we ask kids lots of questions, essentially leading/guiding them to try to discover the solutions on their own. This approach works very well if the kids have done the reading before class, if they have not and are therefore seeing the material in class for the very first time, they typically have a harder time answering questions and being able to take the lead through the material. In the last 45 minutes kids will then work in groups to solve a set of "extension" problems which take the core concepts learned in class and apply them to problems. Again they can work together or alone, can come up and present solutions, etc. When time permits we also have an end of class activity for the last 15 mins to further extend their understand of the concept, but in some classes there is not enough time to get to it (it again depends on the pace that a particular set of kids in a particular class can handle).

OP here, this is really helpful, thank you!

[Anonymous]

We have been to AoPS. It’s a good curriculum assuming you will need minimal help from teachers. Most students just practice math at home. They fill up 12 to 18 kids per class. So there is a limited one on one interaction.

I would rather consider RSM or Mathnasium should you prefer more one on one interaction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For parents who have their children in either of the programs, what do you like about the program? My DD is in RSM, but wondering if AoPS would be better.

Please refrain from turning this into a diatribe about how coaching and prepping is unnecessary--you know nothing about why we're doing it so don't bother with the negativity--and stick to the original question being asked, otherwise I will ask JSteele to remove your comment. Thanks for playing by the forum rules!

DD started at AoPS this year, but after a couple of classes we switched to RSM. What I like about RSM is the possibility to choose a class on DD's level. They have regular classes and advanced classes on each grade level, as well as math competition team. It's also possible to go a grade up, if necessary. My DD's just did this. So far we really like it. DD enjoys the additional challenge and she made friends with the other kids.

What prompted the switch to RSM? We are currently with RSM and contemplating AoPS, so curious to know why? Is it because AoPS wouldn't allow your child to switch to a higher grade learning?

To be honest we haven't been at AoPS long enough to test whether a higher grade level would be a better fit. It might have been, but we haven't tried. In general I am a supporter of keeping DD in groups of similarly aged kids for social reasons. I disagree about making friends, she has a couple of good friends at RSM, but then again, she is there a lot. She does advanced class on her grade level plus math competition team, and some kids are the same in both teams, so she sees them twice per week.

I liked AoPS initially, and DD really liked the books. I think she liked the books there more than the handouts at RSM. But I also like the homework help/ make up lesson option at RSM, very handy if you travel etc, not sure whether AoPS has anything like that. So I don't know which one is better honestly. So far we are happy with RSM.

Can you afford doing both for a month? I think you can cancel AoPS within a couple of lessons if you don't like it and want to stay with RSM. This will allow you to understand the differences better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For parents who have their children in either of the programs, what do you like about the program? My DD is in RSM, but wondering if AoPS would be better.

Please refrain from turning this into a diatribe about how coaching and prepping is unnecessary--you know nothing about why we're doing it so don't bother with the negativity--and stick to the original question being asked, otherwise I will ask JSteele to remove your comment. Thanks for playing by the forum rules!

DD started at AoPS this year, but after a couple of classes we switched to RSM. What I like about RSM is the possibility to choose a class on DD's level. They have regular classes and advanced classes on each grade level, as well as math competition team. It's also possible to go a grade up, if necessary. My DD's just did this. So far we really like it. DD enjoys the additional challenge and she made friends with the other kids.

What prompted the switch to RSM? We are currently with RSM and contemplating AoPS, so curious to know why? Is it because AoPS wouldn't allow your child to switch to a higher grade learning?

To be honest we haven't been at AoPS long enough to test whether a higher grade level would be a better fit. It might have been, but we haven't tried. In general I am a supporter of keeping DD in groups of similarly aged kids for social reasons. I disagree about making friends, she has a couple of good friends at RSM, but then again, she is there a lot. She does advanced class on her grade level plus math competition team, and some kids are the same in both teams, so she sees them twice per week.

I liked AoPS initially, and DD really liked the books. I think she liked the books there more than the handouts at RSM. But I also like the homework help/ make up lesson option at RSM, very handy if you travel etc, not sure whether AoPS has anything like that. So I don't know which one is better honestly. So far we are happy with RSM.

Can you afford doing both for a month? I think you can cancel AoPS within a couple of lessons if you don't like it and want to stay with RSM. This will allow you to understand the differences better.

Yes I agree that the books may be a nicer way for kids to learn the concept, though I don't know how many kids are actually reading the material during the class for the lower grades. My bigger issue with AoPS is the online homework. For a family like ours, where we are really trying to limit online time, adding homework on the computer isn't always great. Sometimes a challenging question is too much to work through from computer to paper, so my kid will just use the 'help' button to help his way to the answer without really fully grasping the solution. I've had to sit down with my kid when he does the online homework because I needed to make sure that he didn't keep doing that. I would prefer if they moved to paper version of homework, so that they kid can work through the problem and you can see where the logic went wrong and point it out upon checking. We have a friend who does RSM and that's what the RSM program does. They don't start online homework until 4th or 5th grade, from what I understand. I think that's more age appropriate. Not to confuse you, but we are actually thinking of switching from AoPS to RSM. I think the AoPS higher grade programs are good, and we may return to Algebra+ programs at a later time. For the younger grades, I think the RSM program may actually be more appropriately taught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have been to AoPS. It’s a good curriculum assuming you will need minimal help from teachers. Most students just practice math at home. They fill up 12 to 18 kids per class. So there is a limited one on one interaction.

I would rather consider RSM or Mathnasium should you prefer more one on one interaction.

+1 . The instruction provided at class has been minimally helpful in completing the homework. I do not have time to figure out math problems, so a lot of time my child does not do many of the hw problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have been to AoPS. It’s a good curriculum assuming you will need minimal help from teachers. Most students just practice math at home. They fill up 12 to 18 kids per class. So there is a limited one on one interaction.

I would rather consider RSM or Mathnasium should you prefer more one on one interaction.

+1 . The instruction provided at class has been minimally helpful in completing the homework. I do not have time to figure out math problems, so a lot of time my child does not do many of the hw problems.

Does your child do the assigned reading at home? Instruction at these enrichment programs is primarily to introduce and develop new concepts, not primarily focused on completing the homework. The HW is supposed to be challenging, but doable once the reading, attendance, and participation is class is done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have been to AoPS. It’s a good curriculum assuming you will need minimal help from teachers. Most students just practice math at home. They fill up 12 to 18 kids per class. So there is a limited one on one interaction.

I would rather consider RSM or Mathnasium should you prefer more one on one interaction.

+1 . The instruction provided at class has been minimally helpful in completing the homework. I do not have time to figure out math problems, so a lot of time my child does not do many of the hw problems.

Does your child do the assigned reading at home? Instruction at these enrichment programs is primarily to introduce and develop new concepts, not primarily focused on completing the homework. The HW is supposed to be challenging, but doable once the reading, attendance, and participation is class is done.

There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have been to AoPS. It’s a good curriculum assuming you will need minimal help from teachers. Most students just practice math at home. They fill up 12 to 18 kids per class. So there is a limited one on one interaction.

I would rather consider RSM or Mathnasium should you prefer more one on one interaction.

+1 . The instruction provided at class has been minimally helpful in completing the homework. I do not have time to figure out math problems, so a lot of time my child does not do many of the hw problems.

Does your child do the assigned reading at home? Instruction at these enrichment programs is primarily to introduce and develop new concepts, not primarily focused on completing the homework. The HW is supposed to be challenging, but doable once the reading, attendance, and participation is class is done.

There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

There definitely is assigned reading every week from their book for Prealgebra and above courses. Not sure for Beast Academy, maybe not, since they do spend part of class reading the guidebooks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

Don't they still hand out the Beast Academy guidebooks? My kids loved those and had no problems with reading the material. My kids are in their 3rd year at AoPS, and the homework has never been a problem or a big deal. If it is for your child, I would look into whether your kid is in an inappropriate class level. Or, is it possible that your kid is reluctant to attempt problems that require any thinking, and instead over-asks for help?

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

Don't they still hand out the Beast Academy guidebooks? My kids loved those and had no problems with reading the material. My kids are in their 3rd year at AoPS, and the homework has never been a problem or a big deal. If it is for your child, I would look into whether your kid is in an inappropriate class level. Or, is it possible that your kid is reluctant to attempt problems that require any thinking, and instead over-asks for help?

Yes they do and kids can always read them on their own at home if they wish, even though they get read as a group during class.

A big problem that I've noticed is that kids have not learned how to ask for help outside of class. Each class has a dedicated online message board and if they are stuck, they can always post a question anytime. Usually within a few hours max, someone will provide a hint or guide to help them. The issue is that most kids do not use the message board and when they do, they say they need help with problem x, but don't provide any info about what they've tried. We're trying to teach them the skill that asking for help is very valuable in life, but it's hard to get them used to the fact that it's ok to do that (I suspect this is because not enough encouragement is given in school to ask questions and not be afraid of being wrong).

[Anonymous]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

Don't they still hand out the Beast Academy guidebooks? My kids loved those and had no problems with reading the material. My kids are in their 3rd year at AoPS, and the homework has never been a problem or a big deal. If it is for your child, I would look into whether your kid is in an inappropriate class level. Or, is it possible that your kid is reluctant to attempt problems that require any thinking, and instead over-asks for help?

Yes they do and kids can always read them on their own at home if they wish, even though they get read as a group during class.

A big problem that I've noticed is that kids have not learned how to ask for help outside of class. Each class has a dedicated online message board and if they are stuck, they can always post a question anytime. Usually within a few hours max, someone will provide a hint or guide to help them. The issue is that most kids do not use the message board and when they do, they say they need help with problem x, but don't provide any info about what they've tried. We're trying to teach them the skill that asking for help is very valuable in life, but it's hard to get them used to the fact that it's ok to do that (I suspect this is because not enough encouragement is given in school to ask questions and not be afraid of being wrong).

You're asking 2nd and 3rd and 4th graders to explain the question and ask why you need help in an online forum--that's a bit much for this age group. I think it works great when the kids are in the higher grades, but to expect the Beast Academy kids to do this and do it well doesn't quite make sense. Maybe 1 in 5 will be able to do so, but that still leaves 4 kids who aren't really learning the concepts well. I'm not saying that RSM does it any better, but at least having the younger kids do the homework on paper and having it checked by the instructor to understand what the kid is getting wrong is a better way to go. Also, I agree with one of the PPs, the Homework Help is a huge benefit of the RSM program. My child has used it several times to get better familiar with the concept that they were having trouble with on the homework.

[pettifogger]

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

Don't they still hand out the Beast Academy guidebooks? My kids loved those and had no problems with reading the material. My kids are in their 3rd year at AoPS, and the homework has never been a problem or a big deal. If it is for your child, I would look into whether your kid is in an inappropriate class level. Or, is it possible that your kid is reluctant to attempt problems that require any thinking, and instead over-asks for help?

Yes they do and kids can always read them on their own at home if they wish, even though they get read as a group during class.

A big problem that I've noticed is that kids have not learned how to ask for help outside of class. Each class has a dedicated online message board and if they are stuck, they can always post a question anytime. Usually within a few hours max, someone will provide a hint or guide to help them. The issue is that most kids do not use the message board and when they do, they say they need help with problem x, but don't provide any info about what they've tried. We're trying to teach them the skill that asking for help is very valuable in life, but it's hard to get them used to the fact that it's ok to do that (I suspect this is because not enough encouragement is given in school to ask questions and not be afraid of being wrong).

You're asking 2nd and 3rd and 4th graders to explain the question and ask why you need help in an online forum--that's a bit much for this age group. I think it works great when the kids are in the higher grades, but to expect the Beast Academy kids to do this and do it well doesn't quite make sense. Maybe 1 in 5 will be able to do so, but that still leaves 4 kids who aren't really learning the concepts well. I'm not saying that RSM does it any better, but at least having the younger kids do the homework on paper and having it checked by the instructor to understand what the kid is getting wrong is a better way to go. Also, I agree with one of the PPs, the Homework Help is a huge benefit of the RSM program. My child has used it several times to get better familiar with the concept that they were having trouble with on the homework.

Sorry you're correct, I should have clarified I was referring to older kids in the post Beast Academy curriculum, i.e. Prealgebra and up. I'm actually not even sure if the classroom message boards are open for the Beast academy classes like they are for the upper level curriculum.

[pettifogger]

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

pettifogger wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There are no assigned readings or the children are not told to do any reading, just to complete the HW problems. The chapters are posted online, so a self motivated child may read the chapter.

Don't they still hand out the Beast Academy guidebooks? My kids loved those and had no problems with reading the material. My kids are in their 3rd year at AoPS, and the homework has never been a problem or a big deal. If it is for your child, I would look into whether your kid is in an inappropriate class level. Or, is it possible that your kid is reluctant to attempt problems that require any thinking, and instead over-asks for help?

Yes they do and kids can always read them on their own at home if they wish, even though they get read as a group during class.

A big problem that I've noticed is that kids have not learned how to ask for help outside of class. Each class has a dedicated online message board and if they are stuck, they can always post a question anytime. Usually within a few hours max, someone will provide a hint or guide to help them. The issue is that most kids do not use the message board and when they do, they say they need help with problem x, but don't provide any info about what they've tried. We're trying to teach them the skill that asking for help is very valuable in life, but it's hard to get them used to the fact that it's ok to do that (I suspect this is because not enough encouragement is given in school to ask questions and not be afraid of being wrong).

You're asking 2nd and 3rd and 4th graders to explain the question and ask why you need help in an online forum--that's a bit much for this age group. I think it works great when the kids are in the higher grades, but to expect the Beast Academy kids to do this and do it well doesn't quite make sense. Maybe 1 in 5 will be able to do so, but that still leaves 4 kids who aren't really learning the concepts well. I'm not saying that RSM does it any better, but at least having the younger kids do the homework on paper and having it checked by the instructor to understand what the kid is getting wrong is a better way to go. Also, I agree with one of the PPs, the Homework Help is a huge benefit of the RSM program. My child has used it several times to get better familiar with the concept that they were having trouble with on the homework.

Sorry you're correct, I should have clarified I was referring to older kids in the post Beast Academy curriculum, i.e. Prealgebra and up. I'm actually not even sure if the classroom message boards are open for the Beast academy classes like they are for the upper level curriculum.

I just checked, confirmed that the Message board help is for Prealgebra courses and up, see below:

Get help when you need it!
It's good to ask for help! Getting stuck can happen when you're learning new things. There are a couple ways you can get help:

Talk to Your Teacher. Teachers are always available before and after class to answer quick questions about the material. Arrive a couple minutes early or stick around a few minutes after class.
Go to Message Board / Office Hours. Math classes from Prealgebra through Calculus hold online Office Hours every weekday, 7:30-8:30 PM ET (4:30-5:30 PM PT). If you are enrolled in one of these classes, you can ask questions on the message board. Your question will be answered in the next office hour by teachers at AoPS National Headquarters. You can also live chat with Headquarters teachers on message board during office hours.
Talk to the Campus Director or an Assistant Campus Director. For in-depth questions that take more time, please set up a conversation with one of these content experts. Call the front desk to schedule a meeting.

[Anonymous]

Me speaking going to both AoPs and RSM.
I personally love RSM considering the fast paced classes and the way of teaching you to understand topics. Now in AoPs I did ELA, it was great and all except they were teaching things we learn in school so didn't really make much of a difference.