Teaching persistence and hard work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, they are born with it. Or not.

This is absolutely FALSE.

Tons and tons of resarch -- including Carol Dweck's research at Stanford -- shows that persistence is a SKILL that can be learned, just like all sorts of other skills.

In fact, Dweck's reserach shows again and again that it's your type of "fixed" mindset that prevents kids from developing persistence!

Here's what the research shows:

When children (or adults) believe they are either "born with" a capacity for hard work or not, they have absolutely no incentive to try harder when things are difficult. This is in part becasue they are quicker to believe that it is out of their control. Basically, the mindset is, "This is hard for me, so I guess I'm not good at it. Some people are born with it and some are not. I wasn't, so why bother trying?"

Basically, the "fixed" mindset you describe encourages passivity and resignation -- even in areas where kids (or adults) could improve their performance with more effort. This includes the very idea of hard work and persistence (practicing and building up the habit of sticking with something that's hard) as well as other skills like math, writing, reading, memorizing spelling words etc.

Sure, some of this stuff comes easier to some people than others. But that does NOT mean that the others can not learn it. They may have to work harder, but anyone can learn to do that. ANYONE.


This

[Anonymous]

My 7 year old son is the same way, but really, I frame it as his choice. "If you want to be in the top reading group, you need to work hard. If you don't put that effort in, you'll probably won't be in that group. So it is your choice." I praise his effort when he makes it, definitely, but at the end of the day, I already did second grade, I already did my instrument lessons and sports. It's DS's choice about how he wants to do his.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also following. We have a bright student who excels at all subjects except writing/spelling. Just has no interest.

This is a pretty big deficit. Even engineers have to be able to express themselves. If she is reading good books she should be picking it up.

I know. That's why I'm concerned. But thanks for your oh-so-helpful comment!

Don't worry PP. I think the person who posted the unhelpful comment is a foreigner, not deliberately asinine. It seems like English is her second language.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Google "growth mind set, fixed mind-set" as you want to always praise your kids for effort, not results. Carol Dweck

a very nice book for you is "Girls will be girls"

signed, mom of two teen DDs

This is me too. I model effort and persistence. I praise time put in on a project, whether it's reading or tidying your room. I may note the outcome, but it's all about the effort as far as I'm concerned.

Working with DS (also 7, what is it about 7 year olds?) on completing homework. He aces the task but has trouble completing the assignment. It's almost as if he feels that since he understands it, he doesn't have to put in the practice. I try to explain that without the evidence, how is the teacher going to know? Since DS and DD (5yo) are in different places academically, praising the effort seems to level the playing field when we're all doing homework together. DS can't scoff at how what DD is doing is so easy because it's not about that. It's about her completing a task. So, she may be coloring and he may be doing a page of math, but they each are praised for putting in the time it takes to get it done.

Thanks for your comment, PP. It helps to think this is an approach that will pay off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wish I knew the answer. Have been doing the "praise the effort" routine for a long time, but that hasn't done the job.

Are you being very specific?

I've noticed that helps my DD (age 8) a lot.

For example, she's a perfectionist when it comes to writing. She won't actually write anything unless she knows she can spell it properly. This means that her writing can't even remotely keep up with her ideas because she self-edits everything down to more basic words she can spell before she even puts the pencil to the paper.

I tried encouraging her to "just write it, even if you can't spell it right," but that went nowhere.

So I focused instead on her spelling words each week. They were easy last year (2nd) but are qutie hard this year.

Each Monday after dinner, she does a "pre-test". I read the 24 words and she writes them as well as she can. The whole idea is that she's not "supposed" to know them yet, because she just got the list. She's happy to do it. I think because there are no expectations that she gets them right.

Then SHE checks what she wrote against the list from school. She puts a check next to the ones she got right, and she writes the correct spelling next to the ones she got wrong.

Then on Tuesday, she does some practice. She likes to write the words she missed a few times. I think it helps her learn. And then we do another quiz. Inevitably, she gets more right this second day. I ALWAYS point it out to her and ask why she thinks she got a few more right this time. (Obviously, because she practiced them . . . but it wasn't obvious to her at all for awhile.)

Same for the third and fourth days. By Friday, she knows all 24. Some she had to work on more than others. Some she kept on getting wrong. But she made obvious progress each day (more correct words), and it was easy to point that out to her and connect it to her EFFORT (practice).

Two months into the school year, I don't need to point out that connection for her. She gets it. And even more exciting, she's HAPPY and EAGER to do the pre-test every Monday night to see her starting point (how many she needs to learn), and is equally eager to practice and try again the next night.

She absolutely has internalized the idea that her effort (taking the pre-tests and practicing the hard words) pays off (more correct words over time). And so she's eager to do it!

We're also now starting to see this in her writing. She's more willing to use harder words she can't properly spell the first time because she sees it as an opportunity to show it to us or her teacher and learn the RIGHT spelling if it's wrong.

I can't tell you how much of a leap forward this is for her. She has always been a perfectionist, and I've long worried it will hold her back. But she's becoming far less fearful of doing something "wrong" because she's learning that mistakes are (1) ok; and (2) an opportunity to learn to do something better.

FWIW, I'm not sure she was developmentally able to put these pieces together at age 6 or 7. She's very bright but tightly wound. But something clicked for her at the start of third grade.

My advice is to stick with it and be specific wherever possible. Kids need VERY pointed examples of when their effort was the cause of their progress. The general concepts are too abstract. Things like "to get better you need to practice" and "mistakes are ok -- that's how you learn" and "you need to stick with it, not give up" just seemed to irritate her or go over her head. But seeing a direct connection each day with the spelling words really seemed to make an impact.

Finally, I HIGHLY recommend Googling "Carol Dweck" and "growth mindset". So much helpful advice and insights there.

[Anonymous]

I'm still trying to figure this out for our 6 yr DS but lately I've been trying to motivate him by expressing what's hard work and what's involved. What the level is to achieve and accomplish something AND what level will disappoint mom and dad.

[Anonymous]

My kids love sports...or the initial idea of playing a sport. When they want to start a sport, I'm clear as day that if I sign them up, they MUST play for a solid year. My son wanted to do lacrosse and it was so expensive that I made him commit for 18 months. After season one he wanted to quit because LAX is hard and take a lot of skill (stick and all that stuff). He told me he used to dream of breaking his leg so he could quit. Now he is a great player and loves it. So for us, I simply do not allow quitting. Once the kids want to do something, then it's all or nothing. I fear one day they might want to do an instrument and then all hell is going to break loose.

I don't negotiate, I don't allow a way out. You do it, you work and you master it. I will also say that for sports, my kids have to go out into the back yard and practice their sport every single day. I give my kids allowance and they can also "buy" screentime for various behaviors/chores. Whatever they are committed to at the time is tied to their allowance and extra screentime.

I feel that talking to them is not enough. I need a carrot to motivate them while we are trying to create habit.

[Anonymous]

My philosophy is that outcomes are what matter most in life, so we do praise good outcomes and all privileges are tied to successfully meeting applicable standards.

However, even if outcomes fall short we note and praise genuine effort. One thing I try not to praise the kids for, or even make a big deal of, is innate talent. I don't do "you're so smart", "you're so good at [sport, hobby, whatever]", "you're beautiful", etc. Instead I specify something under the child's control and express praise or appreciation for that. "Great job in that class (that she got an A in)", "I admire how much effort you're putting into studying (for a class where the grade is less than an A)", "good game/performance/artwork/new fashion."

At least for my kids, when they feel like something is in their control they're motivated to show that they can do well at it, but if they think something is outside their influence they don't seem to consider the task worth expending any effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, they are born with it. Or not.

I was wondering if someone would say this.
I do believe almost all of us were like OP's daughter when we were kids.
Did you break out f it at some point, and how.
My guess it was much later in life and NOT FRO A BOOK.
I also suspect personality and character are the main factors in working hard -- and many adults steer away from things that are "too hard."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, they are born with it. Or not.

This is absolutely FALSE.

Tons and tons of resarch -- including Carol Dweck's research at Stanford -- shows that persistence is a SKILL that can be learned, just like all sorts of other skills.

In fact, Dweck's reserach shows again and again that it's your type of "fixed" mindset that prevents kids from developing persistence!

Here's what the research shows:

When children (or adults) believe they are either "born with" a capacity for hard work or not, they have absolutely no incentive to try harder when things are difficult. This is in part becasue they are quicker to believe that it is out of their control. Basically, the mindset is, "This is hard for me, so I guess I'm not good at it. Some people are born with it and some are not. I wasn't, so why bother trying?"

Basically, the "fixed" mindset you describe encourages passivity and resignation -- even in areas where kids (or adults) could improve their performance with more effort. This includes the very idea of hard work and persistence (practicing and building up the habit of sticking with something that's hard) as well as other skills like math, writing, reading, memorizing spelling words etc.

Sure, some of this stuff comes easier to some people than others. But that does NOT mean that the others can not learn it. They may have to work harder, but anyone can learn to do that. ANYONE.


This

it's a skill that can be learned but they can't do it if spending hours on social media and playing video games.
Knowing how to do it, and actually doing it are two very different things.
They have to decide that hard work is worth it. I think 7 years old is a little young to expect them to come to this realization - but they're the ones that have to "get it."

[Anonymous]

I don't emphasize "working hard" as an abstract value, because at a young age I don't think they get it and I would be a hypocrite because I honestly don't value it for its own sake either. Instead, I emphasize "figuring out what's needed to achieve a goal, then doing that" because it's something that can easily apply to a variety of situations and, frankly, I think it makes more sense.

Make getting good grades worth it to the child. Then, help them plan how they're going to get the grades that they (for whatever reason) want. When they succeed, they've learned clearly that if they want anything good out of life they need to put in sufficient effort to earn it.

[Anonymous]

How do you know that your kid is not working like a dog already -- at just handling the day? Are you so certain that your kid isn't putting in lots of extra effort to manage: social anxiety/disruptive environments/ toxic stress/ sensitivity to tensions in the home/ abuse from relatives/ bullying from peers/ learning disabilities (even ones we don't label)/ food cravings/ instability/ mental illness, etc.?

Seriously, I bring all this up because they test things like this by putting mice that are bred to be mellow and mice that are bred to be anxious in water where they have to "work hard" not to drown. The motivation (not drowning) is definitely compelling, but the stressed mice have a hard time managing to swim for as long as others. If your child's "performance" seems less than it should be, perhaps that is because they are having to expend a lot of effort doing something that you aren't taking notice of, and that maybe other kids don't have to expend as much effort to do.