Help with odd social behavior - 4 year old

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my child was in PK4, he hit his classmates. The teachers said that it wasn't meanness or aggression, but as if he wanted to see what would happen, what their reaction would be. I thought it was because he wanted to engage, but didn't know how. Later that year, he was diagnosed with autism.

But, like the pp said, it could be a lot of things. Do you have a developmental pediatrician? Who diagnosed the ADHD?

We do - I don't think it's autism, at least right now. He's overly social - just so bad at it. Like attempts to engage aggressively constantly. Also very easy to transition. Transistions all day! Pretty sure it's very bad ADHD and some lds of some type.

I'm of course not saying it's autism -- I don't know your kid. But many kids on the spectrum do as you describe -- want to be social, but go about it all wrong.

I hear you. But it's been ruled out at this point because he has a ton of joint attention to stuff he is interested in and others and is very attached, affectionate, etc. he has severe ADHD so I think his social pragmatic issues are severe. I am by no means avoiding an autism diagnosis, but at this point I'm much more worried about cognition etc.

There are so many possible things other than autism that interfere with development many of them more severe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When my child was in PK4, he hit his classmates. The teachers said that it wasn't meanness or aggression, but as if he wanted to see what would happen, what their reaction would be. I thought it was because he wanted to engage, but didn't know how. Later that year, he was diagnosed with autism.

But, like the pp said, it could be a lot of things. Do you have a developmental pediatrician? Who diagnosed the ADHD?

We do - I don't think it's autism, at least right now. He's overly social - just so bad at it. Like attempts to engage aggressively constantly. Also very easy to transition. Transistions all day! Pretty sure it's very bad ADHD and some lds of some type.

I'm of course not saying it's autism -- I don't know your kid. But many kids on the spectrum do as you describe -- want to be social, but go about it all wrong.

I hear you. But it's been ruled out at this point because he has a ton of joint attention to stuff he is interested in and others and is very attached, affectionate, etc. he has severe ADHD so I think his social pragmatic issues are severe. I am by no means avoiding an autism diagnosis, but at this point I'm much more worried about cognition etc.

There are so many possible things other than autism that interfere with development many of them more severe.

It may not be autism, but I strongly urge you to see a developmental pediatrician if you haven't already. My kid has severe speech delays and ADHD--and not physically aggressive--however this is not an easy row to hoe. You'll probably find therapeutic groups or approaches that also accept kids with autism helpful b/c they deal with social aspects of communication and regulation.

[Anonymous]

We have a dev ped and we are doing aba.

[Anonymous]

I also have a child who has been aggressive since he was 24 months old (soon after he began devloping language). At the beginning, he would go after any child who was smaller than him or any child he perceived as "weaker" (and he's a pretty strong kid for his age, so "weaker" meant kids up to 2.5 years older than him in some cases). We had lots of issues during parent-child classes. He clearly wanted to be social, but we didn't know how to help him be social, especially since his language skills were very delayed.

He started in MCITP at 16 months with an SLP and a special educator. When he was 2.5, he started preschool in a normal program and his special educator would work him him weekly in his classroom. It was a bit of a mess. Apparently, he was hitting multiple children per hour and the teachers in the preschool would do nothing; they chalked up what he did to "normal" behavior. We told them (and his special educator told them) multiple times to not let him hit, but to no avail. We pulled him from that program when he became eligible for an MCPS program at 3 and he was assigned to PEP Classic.

The difference we have seen in the last few months in our child has been huge. First, his PEP teachers have consistently told us that he was never a behavior issue in class and he never hit his classmates there. I believe that because PEP provides a child with a consistent, structured environment with a lot of supports and supervision. Second, his language skills have improved exponentially. In PEP this year, they spent the last two months of the school year just working on question words. He now understands questions and can usually respond to questions properly. Being able to understand more has helped improve his behavior.

He is also in a speech therapy program through Kennedy Krieger and having the additional speech therapy sessions have also helped.

We also started last August looking for a different preschool environment for him when it was clear that the first preschool we chose wasn't going to be a good fit. It took until very recently to find a program that would embrace our child with his challenges without putting him on a short leash before getting kicked out. He hasn't been there long, so it's hard to tell what's going to happen, but we've observed their classrooms and seen how the teachers have handled children with short attention spans and children who want to hit, and we're impressed. They have really impressed on the children that hitting is not OK and is not acceptable, and they really focus on teaching the children to be polite. For example, this morning at drop-off, a child came up to me and said, "Excuse me, can you please open this for me?" I think the way the children speak to each other and adults in a classroom says a lot for the environment.

Getting back to our DS, he hits a lot less than he used to. He hit one child at a museum last week when he was overtired and in need of a nap. He also tried playing a bit too rough with a baby in a shopping cart at a store over the weekend, also when he was overtired and in need of a nap. We had to intervene both times. However, his behavior when it is not close to nap time has improved tremendously.

I attribute his recent behavior to having him in environments that support positive behavior. We don't think that a school that tolerates children hitting other children is the right place for our child. I know that it's really late in the game to switch schools, but you might want to find a school that will accept your child for who he is and will work to help his behavior. If you haven't gotten a Child Find evaluation done, it might be worth doing to see if he qualifies for a public program. These public programs are really amazing, the classrooms are state-of-the-art, the toys and books are new and are fabulous (Elephant and Piggie, Knuffle Bunny, Chicka Chicka Boom Boom, Llama Llama Red Pajama, Owen, A Good Day, The Snowy Day, etc.), and the teachers are highly qualified (Masters in Special Education).

I don't want to tell you what to do. I can just tell you that if our child had continued in his old program, we would be in an incredibly frustrated place right now. Instead, we're seeing some light at the end of whatever tunnel we're/he's in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I also have a child who has been aggressive since he was 24 months old (soon after he began devloping language). At the beginning, he would go after any child who was smaller than him or any child he perceived as "weaker" (and he's a pretty strong kid for his age, so "weaker" meant kids up to 2.5 years older than him in some cases). We had lots of issues during parent-child classes. He clearly wanted to be social, but we didn't know how to help him be social, especially since his language skills were very delayed.

He started in MCITP at 16 months with an SLP and a special educator. When he was 2.5, he started preschool in a normal program and his special educator would work him him weekly in his classroom. It was a bit of a mess. Apparently, he was hitting multiple children per hour and the teachers in the preschool would do nothing; they chalked up what he did to "normal" behavior. We told them (and his special educator told them) multiple times to not let him hit, but to no avail. We pulled him from that program when he became eligible for an MCPS program at 3 and he was assigned to PEP Classic.

The difference we have seen in the last few months in our child has been huge. First, his PEP teachers have consistently told us that he was never a behavior issue in class and he never hit his classmates there. I believe that because PEP provides a child with a consistent, structured environment with a lot of supports and supervision. Second, his language skills have improved exponentially. In PEP this year, they spent the last two months of the school year just working on question words. He now understands questions and can usually respond to questions properly. Being able to understand more has helped improve his behavior.

He is also in a speech therapy program through Kennedy Krieger and having the additional speech therapy sessions have also helped.

We also started last August looking for a different preschool environment for him when it was clear that the first preschool we chose wasn't going to be a good fit. It took until very recently to find a program that would embrace our child with his challenges without putting him on a short leash before getting kicked out. He hasn't been there long, so it's hard to tell what's going to happen, but we've observed their classrooms and seen how the teachers have handled children with short attention spans and children who want to hit, and we're impressed. They have really impressed on the children that hitting is not OK and is not acceptable, and they really focus on teaching the children to be polite. For example, this morning at drop-off, a child came up to me and said, "Excuse me, can you please open this for me?" I think the way the children speak to each other and adults in a classroom says a lot for the environment.

Getting back to our DS, he hits a lot less than he used to. He hit one child at a museum last week when he was overtired and in need of a nap. He also tried playing a bit too rough with a baby in a shopping cart at a store over the weekend, also when he was overtired and in need of a nap. We had to intervene both times. However, his behavior when it is not close to nap time has improved tremendously.

I attribute his recent behavior to having him in environments that support positive behavior. We don't think that a school that tolerates children hitting other children is the right place for our child. I know that it's really late in the game to switch schools, but you might want to find a school that will accept your child for who he is and will work to help his behavior. If you haven't gotten a Child Find evaluation done, it might be worth doing to see if he qualifies for a public program. These public programs are really amazing, the classrooms are state-of-the-art, the toys and books are new and are fabulous (Elephant and Piggie, Knuffle Bunny, Chicka Chicka Boom Boom, Llama Llama Red Pajama, Owen, A Good Day, The Snowy Day, etc.), and the teachers are highly qualified (Masters in Special Education).

I don't want to tell you what to do. I can just tell you that if our child had continued in his old program, we would be in an incredibly frustrated place right now. Instead, we're seeing some light at the end of whatever tunnel we're/he's in.

Really happy for you that you found a supportive environment! We also found that our child's behavior improved enormously with some time (from 3 to 4) and a more structured, proactive, accepting preschool. We are in DC and had a horrific time in DCPS. There just seems to be no equivalent here to PEP, which is a shame. We ended up in a private program that just functions better than DCPS but we lucked out to a certain extent.

[Anonymous]

I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

[Anonymous]

OP - maybe the diagnosis doesn't matter so much right now if you, your spouse and the school are all on the same page as to how to work on/address the behavior issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

It's a spectrum. ADHD is often co-morbid with autism. Kids with autism can also be affectionate. You sound like you have some misconceptions about these issues, OP.

First things first. Please go for an evaluation from a developmental pediatrician. I think you'll have a better handle on what you're dealing with.

Secondly, I would seek out a behavioral therapist or ABA therapist who can deal with the grabbing and hitting and can help you and your spouse learn a systematic approach for dealing with this unwanted behavior.

Lastly, I would seek out an IEP through your local school district if you haven't already. If your kid is doing this at 4, he will more than likely need support of some kind. OT and ST therapy are great, but I think you're more in for a marathon than a sprint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

It's a spectrum. ADHD is often co-morbid with autism. Kids with autism can also be affectionate. You sound like you have some misconceptions about these issues, OP.

First things first. Please go for an evaluation from a developmental pediatrician. I think you'll have a better handle on what you're dealing with.

Secondly, I would seek out a behavioral therapist or ABA therapist who can deal with the grabbing and hitting and can help you and your spouse learn a systematic approach for dealing with this unwanted behavior.

Lastly, I would seek out an IEP through your local school district if you haven't already. If your kid is doing this at 4, he will more than likely need support of some kind. OT and ST therapy are great, but I think you're more in for a marathon than a sprint.

I have stated that we have a dev ped, are doing aba, and have an iep, but thank you. I've actually said that at least three times on this thread. I also am aware that it's a marathon, but yes, thank you, I know. Not thinking this is a quick fix. I do know that there is a spectrum. Neither our dev ped nor the teachers nor child find seem to think he is on it. It is hard, very hard, I've found, when your child's issues are not autism, because rather than address the issues everyone asks if you are sure it's not autism. If it is, it's the type where you are very social, attached, have joint attention, very affectionate, very emotionally engaged, and are very bad at interacting with peers. I know that there is that type described on here but it's not the usual, I wouldn't say.

[Anonymous]

Op here - I get really frustrated with the bias and judgment re behavioral issues on this board. Behavioral issues are often part and parcel of delays, and they are no worse than say not talking, they just are less societally acceptable. I'm not going to allow my kid to hurt anyone or put him in a situation where that can happen. But anytime I've sought help on this board I've been chastised, condemned and told that these are the most seriously bad issues there are. I have found that special needs parents are often the most likely to take every opportunity to find someone whose situation is "worse" than their own. It's very off putting and not helpful to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

It's a spectrum. ADHD is often co-morbid with autism. Kids with autism can also be affectionate. You sound like you have some misconceptions about these issues, OP.

First things first. Please go for an evaluation from a developmental pediatrician. I think you'll have a better handle on what you're dealing with.

Secondly, I would seek out a behavioral therapist or ABA therapist who can deal with the grabbing and hitting and can help you and your spouse learn a systematic approach for dealing with this unwanted behavior.

Lastly, I would seek out an IEP through your local school district if you haven't already. If your kid is doing this at 4, he will more than likely need support of some kind. OT and ST therapy are great, but I think you're more in for a marathon than a sprint.

I have stated that we have a dev ped, are doing aba, and have an iep, but thank you. I've actually said that at least three times on this thread. I also am aware that it's a marathon, but yes, thank you, I know. Not thinking this is a quick fix. I do know that there is a spectrum. Neither our dev ped nor the teachers nor child find seem to think he is on it. It is hard, very hard, I've found, when your child's issues are not autism, because rather than address the issues everyone asks if you are sure it's not autism. If it is, it's the type where you are very social, attached, have joint attention, very affectionate, very emotionally engaged, and are very bad at interacting with peers. I know that there is that type described on here but it's not the usual, I wouldn't say.

Hi OP, I'm a new poster. These posts are hard for everybody, because most of us are not professionals, but just have a kid with one issue or another. When someone recognizes something similar to their own kid's issues, they tend to chime in suggesting their child's diagnosis. Which I think is natural but can lead to frustration as well, because the result is suggestions from all over the map. And whether they are right or wrong, some suggestions are things would rather not contemplate. But people continue to post here because it still provides something that can't be had just by talking to professionals.

I had a sinking feeling of recognition when reading your post. I didn't chime in with my kid's diagnosis, because it's nothing anyone wants to hear, and I would never presume that I could diagnose anything, let alone from a few lines of text on a message board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op here - I get really frustrated with the bias and judgment re behavioral issues on this board. Behavioral issues are often part and parcel of delays, and they are no worse than say not talking, they just are less societally acceptable. I'm not going to allow my kid to hurt anyone or put him in a situation where that can happen. But anytime I've sought help on this board I've been chastised, condemned and told that these are the most seriously bad issues there are. I have found that special needs parents are often the most likely to take every opportunity to find someone whose situation is "worse" than their own. It's very off putting and not helpful to anyone.

I didn't read any of the responses as chastising or condemning. Many parents here have kids who have behavioral issues as part of their disabilities, and have been in your shoes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

It's a spectrum. ADHD is often co-morbid with autism. Kids with autism can also be affectionate. You sound like you have some misconceptions about these issues, OP.

First things first. Please go for an evaluation from a developmental pediatrician. I think you'll have a better handle on what you're dealing with.

Secondly, I would seek out a behavioral therapist or ABA therapist who can deal with the grabbing and hitting and can help you and your spouse learn a systematic approach for dealing with this unwanted behavior.

Lastly, I would seek out an IEP through your local school district if you haven't already. If your kid is doing this at 4, he will more than likely need support of some kind. OT and ST therapy are great, but I think you're more in for a marathon than a sprint.

I have stated that we have a dev ped, are doing aba, and have an iep, but thank you. I've actually said that at least three times on this thread. I also am aware that it's a marathon, but yes, thank you, I know. Not thinking this is a quick fix. I do know that there is a spectrum. Neither our dev ped nor the teachers nor child find seem to think he is on it. It is hard, very hard, I've found, when your child's issues are not autism, because rather than address the issues everyone asks if you are sure it's not autism. If it is, it's the type where you are very social, attached, have joint attention, very affectionate, very emotionally engaged, and are very bad at interacting with peers. I know that there is that type described on here but it's not the usual, I wouldn't say.

Hi OP, I'm a new poster. These posts are hard for everybody, because most of us are not professionals, but just have a kid with one issue or another. When someone recognizes something similar to their own kid's issues, they tend to chime in suggesting their child's diagnosis. Which I think is natural but can lead to frustration as well, because the result is suggestions from all over the map. And whether they are right or wrong, some suggestions are things would rather not contemplate. But people continue to post here because it still provides something that can't be had just by talking to professionals.

I had a sinking feeling of recognition when reading your post. I didn't chime in with my kid's diagnosis, because it's nothing anyone wants to hear, and I would never presume that I could diagnose anything, let alone from a few lines of text on a message board.

Well, now, of course, I want you to share! I mean, I'm looking for advice. I want advice. Tell me what you recognize.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know what to do: the social issues are honestly constant (op here). I'm not sure if this means we need to revisit the autism thing. I thought autistic kids were not often violent. I'm talking nonstop grabbing, hitting, annoying. It's so tiring.

It's a spectrum. ADHD is often co-morbid with autism. Kids with autism can also be affectionate. You sound like you have some misconceptions about these issues, OP.

First things first. Please go for an evaluation from a developmental pediatrician. I think you'll have a better handle on what you're dealing with.

Secondly, I would seek out a behavioral therapist or ABA therapist who can deal with the grabbing and hitting and can help you and your spouse learn a systematic approach for dealing with this unwanted behavior.

Lastly, I would seek out an IEP through your local school district if you haven't already. If your kid is doing this at 4, he will more than likely need support of some kind. OT and ST therapy are great, but I think you're more in for a marathon than a sprint.

I have stated that we have a dev ped, are doing aba, and have an iep, but thank you. I've actually said that at least three times on this thread. I also am aware that it's a marathon, but yes, thank you, I know. Not thinking this is a quick fix. I do know that there is a spectrum. Neither our dev ped nor the teachers nor child find seem to think he is on it. It is hard, very hard, I've found, when your child's issues are not autism, because rather than address the issues everyone asks if you are sure it's not autism. If it is, it's the type where you are very social, attached, have joint attention, very affectionate, very emotionally engaged, and are very bad at interacting with peers. I know that there is that type described on here but it's not the usual, I wouldn't say.

OP, you said 21:53 in all the blue that you had a developmental pediatrician, but you didn’t say that was the person who actually diagnosed your kid. You mentioned a developmental pediatrician and IEP in post 07:14 and that you have a developmental pediatrician and doing ABA in post 12:27. So sorry that I missed those posts but maybe you should have listed that info in your initial post. You have a lot of misconceptions about autism and it's hard for every one on this board. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

I don't think I have any misconceptions re autism. I'm not afraid of that diagnosis at all. It's much less scary than many of the others that we have contenplated. I know that many Asd kids are socially motivated. But not all kids with issues have asd.