Dog for a touchy-feely 4 year old?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, sounds like most people think it's a bad idea. I was thinking a larger/mid-sized breed like a lab or, oddly enough, an English Sheep Dog (my grandparents had one), or a standard poodle. Definitely something that wouldn't get smooshed.

I see videos of people rolling around with these dogs all the time. Is that not really the case? Is it not specific to the breed, but just the individual dog?

I wasn't thinking he would have unfettered access to the dog for touching, but more that a dog might like having a kid like that around because the dog would want that kind of attention, and the result would be less touching of everyone else.

We are teaching appropriate boundaries, but as a PP said, this is his "love languages," and if I can find a way to help him get what he needs while still curbing his encroachment on other people's space, I'd like to do that. I thought a dog might help a lot.

You're right, you do see those videos all the time. Any dog trainer worth 2 cents will tell you that the dogs are displaying extreme stress signals. Lip licking, yawning, ears back, "whale eyes", panting, stiff body language, etc. Owners just don't know how to read their dogs' language.

The next step when the signals are ignored is often the dog growling, because it doesn't know how else to get its point across. Then the dog is yelled at for growling, so it stops. Finally, the dog will sometimes resort to biting, because it just wants to be left alone, and the people aren't getting it. Then the dog is handed over to a shelter as a bite risk, or euthanized for "aggression". In reality, the signs were there all along that the dog was unhappy, but people were ignoring them.

DO NOT LET A CHILD ROLL AROUND WITH A DOG.

Ehh some dogs truly do like it. I'm not a child, but my 10lb dog is obsessed with rolling around on the floor and being chased. We roughhouse nightly. But I'm not a 4 year old and the dog knows I wouldn't ever hurt him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OK, sounds like most people think it's a bad idea. I was thinking a larger/mid-sized breed like a lab or, oddly enough, an English Sheep Dog (my grandparents had one), or a standard poodle. Definitely something that wouldn't get smooshed.

I see videos of people rolling around with these dogs all the time. Is that not really the case? Is it not specific to the breed, but just the individual dog?

I wasn't thinking he would have unfettered access to the dog for touching, but more that a dog might like having a kid like that around because the dog would want that kind of attention, and the result would be less touching of everyone else.

We are teaching appropriate boundaries, but as a PP said, this is his "love languages," and if I can find a way to help him get what he needs while still curbing his encroachment on other people's space, I'd like to do that. I thought a dog might help a lot.

You realize, OP, that videos of people and their dogs are just a few minute clip of the every day? Yes, some dogs appreciate lots of one on one physical contact, but others are not wired that way. Our dog needs to be roughly 2 feet away from you at all times, but is not a "hands on" dog most of the time - even though, I have lots of videos of us cuddling and such. The difference is, we let her come to us when she feels like it, because hey - it's her body and space.

The problem is, OP, your son does not understand boundaries, and he needs to understand them before you get any dog. Even a dog that will play and cuddle needs alone time, needs to be left alone if hurt, not feeling well, tired, eating, etc. If your child does not understand boundaries, some dogs will have no hesitation in teaching him, which for dogs it's NOT rude to snap, growl, and even bite.

I've had OEs, bearded collies, Great Danes, and a bunch of other breeds. While temperament is often somewhat elated to breed, there are no guarantees and each dog is their own "person" with different likes, dislikes, and tolerance nice levels.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, sounds like most people think it's a bad idea. I was thinking a larger/mid-sized breed like a lab or, oddly enough, an English Sheep Dog (my grandparents had one), or a standard poodle. Definitely something that wouldn't get smooshed.

I see videos of people rolling around with these dogs all the time. Is that not really the case? Is it not specific to the breed, but just the individual dog?

I wasn't thinking he would have unfettered access to the dog for touching, but more that a dog might like having a kid like that around because the dog would want that kind of attention, and the result would be less touching of everyone else.

We are teaching appropriate boundaries, but as a PP said, this is his "love languages," and if I can find a way to help him get what he needs while still curbing his encroachment on other people's space, I'd like to do that. I thought a dog might help a lot.

You're right, you do see those videos all the time. Any dog trainer worth 2 cents will tell you that the dogs are displaying extreme stress signals. Lip licking, yawning, ears back, "whale eyes", panting, stiff body language, etc. Owners just don't know how to read their dogs' language.

The next step when the signals are ignored is often the dog growling, because it doesn't know how else to get its point across. Then the dog is yelled at for growling, so it stops. Finally, the dog will sometimes resort to biting, because it just wants to be left alone, and the people aren't getting it. Then the dog is handed over to a shelter as a bite risk, or euthanized for "aggression". In reality, the signs were there all along that the dog was unhappy, but people were ignoring them.

DO NOT LET A CHILD ROLL AROUND WITH A DOG.

Ehh some dogs truly do like it. I'm not a child, but my 10lb dog is obsessed with rolling around on the floor and being chased. We roughhouse nightly. But I'm not a 4 year old and the dog knows I wouldn't ever hurt him.

But it's also the dogs choice to engage in that play or not. OP is posting about a child who NEEDS that kind of stimulation, and is also posting about the "ideal media" dog and scenario, which is not a 24/7 interaction.

[Anonymous]

You might as well said "I'd like to put an innocent animal in a bad situation and have my child get bit."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OK, sounds like most people think it's a bad idea. I was thinking a larger/mid-sized breed like a lab or, oddly enough, an English Sheep Dog (my grandparents had one), or a standard poodle. Definitely something that wouldn't get smooshed.

I see videos of people rolling around with these dogs all the time. Is that not really the case? Is it not specific to the breed, but just the individual dog?

I wasn't thinking he would have unfettered access to the dog for touching, but more that a dog might like having a kid like that around because the dog would want that kind of attention, and the result would be less touching of everyone else.

We are teaching appropriate boundaries, but as a PP said, this is his "love languages," and if I can find a way to help him get what he needs while still curbing his encroachment on other people's space, I'd like to do that. I thought a dog might help a lot.

You're right, you do see those videos all the time. Any dog trainer worth 2 cents will tell you that the dogs are displaying extreme stress signals. Lip licking, yawning, ears back, "whale eyes", panting, stiff body language, etc. Owners just don't know how to read their dogs' language.

The next step when the signals are ignored is often the dog growling, because it doesn't know how else to get its point across. Then the dog is yelled at for growling, so it stops. Finally, the dog will sometimes resort to biting, because it just wants to be left alone, and the people aren't getting it. Then the dog is handed over to a shelter as a bite risk, or euthanized for "aggression". In reality, the signs were there all along that the dog was unhappy, but people were ignoring them.

DO NOT LET A CHILD ROLL AROUND WITH A DOG.

Ehh some dogs truly do like it. I'm not a child, but my 10lb dog is obsessed with rolling around on the floor and being chased. We roughhouse nightly. But I'm not a 4 year old and the dog knows I wouldn't ever hurt him.

Have you seen the videos (I think) the OP is referencing? The dog is lying on the floor, while the child does somersaults over its back, wiggles around on top of it, or plays leap frog over the dog. The dog is not participating--it is putting up with it. I play tug and rough house with my dog too--but she initiates it by bringing a toy and slamming it into my lap. I'll play and push her around while she gets riled up. Very different scenarios. (I've also taught her a very reliable, "All done! Settle!" command. Before that, she'd accidentally bite my hand instead of the toy all the time when she was really overstimulated and losing her brain. I'd be scared to put a child in that situation. My 2 year old knows only mommy rough houses with the dog.

[Anonymous]

Okay, so I think it's settled.

OP, this is a horrible idea that will end with your son being bitten, and the dog being shamed and punished for having bitten because none of its warning signs were listened to.

[Anonymous]

OP, some food for thought. I know you feel like your son has a need that could be met with !a dog!, but please read some of these:

http://eileenanddogs.com/2015/04/07/posting-dog-and-baby-pictures/

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/what-i-learned-too-late-about-keeping-kids-safe-around-dogs/?_r=0

This is also probably one of the best videos I've seen about NOT letting children do what they want, even to a "good dog". This shows a dog communicating rather clearly, and being forced to remain uncomfortable. He somehow remains "tolerant". A HUGE crisis was somehow avoided here, but it might not forever:

https://youtu.be/yaxCYgqh2ao

[Anonymous]

OP. I get it. Bad idea.

But the videos I was talking about are of adults playing with their dogs, tugging on a toy and rolling around, the dog jumping up to lick them, the dog jumping on the bed or into their laps. Things like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1098646/Adorable-video-dogs-greeting-owners.html

I was not thinking of letting my son do whatever to the dog. I was thinking that the dog also might want something my son has, which is an abundance of physical love. I do not want a dog on top of me or jumping up to greet me. DS would love that. It sounds like this is a dog-specific preference and not a breed-specific preference, so we could end up with a dog which isn't into that kind of play even if we chose carefully.

Fair enough. We'll abandon the dog idea at least until the kids are older.

[Anonymous]

OP, I also have a 4yo, along with a large working breed dog that we've had since before she was born. My 4yo has been trained from the time she could crawl on how to interact with the dog. We took a class on how to prevent dog bites when I was pregnant to learn how NOT to "magnetize" your child to the dog (and therefore prevent dog bites). The 4yo now has a healthy respect for his space, is very gentle with the dog, and we still supervise very carefully (probably easier for us w/only one kid).

My spouse works in a pediatric ER and sees dog bites fairly regularly. In most cases, the dog has NEVER bitten anyone--but the child was left alone with the dog, sometimes just briefly, and boom, the child is in the ER with a bite. I think most families haven't learned to recognize the cues that PPs have mentioned, and think it's cute to have the child falling all over the dog.

Another thing to consider besides risk of bites is that it may be overwhelming for some dogs to be around that many young children. You may want to give it another year or two--and by then, your son may well grow out of this phase (or his touchy-feely behavior may get milder). Having a dog is a LOT of work if you consider exercise, training, etc.--not anything to be taken lightly to provide an outlet for one of your kids' "annoying" behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, some food for thought. I know you feel like your son has a need that could be met with !a dog!, but please read some of these:

http://eileenanddogs.com/2015/04/07/posting-dog-and-baby-pictures/

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/what-i-learned-too-late-about-keeping-kids-safe-around-dogs/?_r=0

This is also probably one of the best videos I've seen about NOT letting children do what they want, even to a "good dog". This shows a dog communicating rather clearly, and being forced to remain uncomfortable. He somehow remains "tolerant". A HUGE crisis was somehow avoided here, but it might not forever:

https://youtu.be/yaxCYgqh2ao

Omg. I was cringing watching this video--poor dog. I'm sorry, but these parents are idiots. This was a friggin' Rottweiler; it could've done real damage to this toddler just by virtue of its size.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, some food for thought. I know you feel like your son has a need that could be met with !a dog!, but please read some of these:

http://eileenanddogs.com/2015/04/07/posting-dog-and-baby-pictures/

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/what-i-learned-too-late-about-keeping-kids-safe-around-dogs/?_r=0

This is also probably one of the best videos I've seen about NOT letting children do what they want, even to a "good dog". This shows a dog communicating rather clearly, and being forced to remain uncomfortable. He somehow remains "tolerant". A HUGE crisis was somehow avoided here, but it might not forever:

https://youtu.be/yaxCYgqh2ao

Omg. I was cringing watching this video--poor dog. I'm sorry, but these parents are idiots. This was a friggin' Rottweiler; it could've done real damage to this toddler just by virtue of its size.

+1 This is horrible. That family is so lucky that dog didn't maul that poor baby right then and there. Who videos this stuff?

I used you do "home visits" for potential adopters for a dog rescue group. We would always take one of our own dogs to see how family members reacted to the dog. When a child, probably 5 years or so, started trying to RIDE my senior retriever and the parents did nothing to stop it, then idly watched as she tried to feed my dog an Oreo, I cut the visit short. They probably got a dog anyway, but not from my group. Eventually the group stopped adopting to families with small children at all because of issues like the one above. When things happen, it is almost always the parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. I get it. Bad idea.

But the videos I was talking about are of adults playing with their dogs, tugging on a toy and rolling around, the dog jumping up to lick them, the dog jumping on the bed or into their laps. Things like this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1098646/Adorable-video-dogs-greeting-owners.html

I was not thinking of letting my son do whatever to the dog. I was thinking that the dog also might want something my son has, which is an abundance of physical love. I do not want a dog on top of me or jumping up to greet me. DS would love that. It sounds like this is a dog-specific preference and not a breed-specific preference, so we could end up with a dog which isn't into that kind of play even if we chose carefully.

Fair enough. We'll abandon the dog idea at least until the kids are older.

OP, I do know you're trying to do some thing awesome for your son, while maybe levelling the playing field in your house to make his needs less annoying.

The thing is, a dog WILL greet you like the video you posted. They are likely to climb up on the couch to snuggle. But - it's not the full day, all day, every day like your son seems to need. My dog will greet me as though I left to Tahiti for a year even if I've only been in the front yard for 5 minutes. She needs to be in a direct line of sight with me if at all possible. But, she's not very cuddly and hands on most of the time. For your son, a dog like this would likely be confusing as she needs to be Right.There at all times, but doesn't want actual physical contact save for maybe touching me with her toe.

I know you get it, but I posted the Rottie video to illustrate that most dogs are VERY tolerant to what makes them very comfortable, but it's not a good situation for the dog. Their cues are so subtle that if you don't understand them, you can easily miss how unhappy they are. So it's not a matter of your son "doing anything" to the dog - it's the fact that whatever he is doing, that may seem reasonable to you, may not be reasonable to the dog at all, and are an injury boiling just below the surface. Here's another good example, this time from Animal Planet (that they missed). The narrative doesn't talk about all the cues (again, the whale eye is one you can't miss in this) but she does a pretty good job:

https://youtu.be/JxMPCy10-sw

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Get a gerbil or a rabbit.

Either of those would within a week after spending time with said child.. Or most kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My 4-year-old DS (he is #2 of four, all a little over 1.5 years apart) is one of those kids who always wants to be sitting on a lap, hugging, touching, wrestling, etc.. He has siblings who will wrestle with him sometimes, and adults do plenty of cuddling. However, it's all day long to the point of being annoying to pretty much everyone. He can't just hug; he has to jump up and grab you. He can't just sit next to you; he has to lean on you. He can't just play with the baby; he has to pull on him or move him around. You get the picture (I hope).

I was thinking that maybe a dog would be a good idea. I know there are some breeds who would like a kid to lick and roll around with (he isn't rough; I'm not worried about jumping on an animal or pulling tails or anything). I don't know, though.

Does anyone have a kid like this? Would this be a good idea? Do you have a dog? Does the kid love the dog? Does it help him get his touchy-feelies out?

Total disclosure: I am not a dog person, and have a lot of people to take care of already (and a cat) and would only get one if I thought it would be good for my son. My husband loves dogs, and I think all the kids would, too, so I don't think the dog would be in anyway neglected, and I am certainly prepared to put the work in to be a good dog mommy. There are people home all day (I work PT from home, but there's also a nanny and a part time housekeeper), and my husband would help with the training and care when he's home. This would definitely be more work for me, though, so I'm putting it out there: is this a good enough idea to make it worth the commitment to a dog? If we did this, what type of dog should we look for?

Any of our Labs would have loved your child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Please read this first:
http://www.npr.org/2016/04/30/476212898/lets-not-hug-it-out-with-our-dogs

Dogs are WONDERFUL for FAMILIES with children, but you are considering one for all the wrong reasons. You run the risk of ruining a perfectly good dog and the risk of having a child getting bitten by one. There is no breed that is more likely to appreciate hugs, though there are some less likely to bite in response to being subjected to over-exuberant children. I encourage you to read more about dogs, dog behavior, and dogs with children before going down this road. Patricia McConnell is a good place to start (The Other End of the Leash).

that study was bullshit (the researcher just looked at a couple hundred photos on Flickr and made some observations). that said, a lot of dogs don't like being hugged - so that part is right.

i would reach out to some local rescue groups and ask them if they have any dogs who are "bulletproof" - meaning nothing fazes them. explain your situation and ask their recommendations. they might have one who is actually really needy and wants to be on top of people all the time, who also likes kids - you might find yourself with a perfect match.

these groups use foster homes, which gives them a good sense of a dog's actual personality, so that's the way to go - there's no one breed who is better or worse with very clingy kids.