Segregation in DC schools - charter lottery doesn't help much

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, redneck mom. Don't you have some frybread to make or something?

Sorry, I am too busy gentrifying DC so that it resembles the country we live in, not Nigeria, you know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh, redneck mom. Don't you have some frybread to make or something?

Sadly the frybread redneck connection was wrong, it isn't redneck you idiot

According to Navajo tradition, frybread was created in 1864 using the flour, sugar, salt and lard that was given to them by the United States government when the Navajo, who were living in Arizona, were forced to make the 300-mile journey known as the "Long Walk" and relocate to Bosque Redondo, New Mexico onto land that could not easily support their traditional staples of vegetables and beans.[1]

For many Native Americans, "frybread links generation with generation and also connects the present to the painful narrative of Native American history."[1] It is often served both at home and at gatherings. The way it is served varies from region to region and different tribes have different recipes. It can be found in its many ways at state fairs and pow-wows, but what is served to the paying public may be different from what is served in private homes and in the context of tribal family relations.
Frybread was named the official "state bread" of South Dakota in 2005.[3]
Frybread is also known in South American cooking as a cachanga.[4]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, redneck mom. Don't you have some frybread to make or something?

Sorry, I am too busy gentrifying DC so that it resembles the country we live in, not Nigeria, you know?

Weird, redneck mom, you sound suspiciously like a lonely old balding man who's never actually walked down the street in D.C. and only knows about it from Fox News.
Perhaps have you been a Palin supporter in the last two elections?

[Anonymous]

The problem is, this data doesn't tell you what the landscape looked like before there were charters. Or the counterfactual of what things might look like if charters weren't on the scene.

Is the distribution of at-risk kids inequitable now? Yes. I also suspect that it's less inequitable than it's been in the recent past, even in DCPS. Because a good number of those non-at-risk kids in the charter schools WOULD NOT BE in the system if not for the charters - which is to say, the whole denominator would be different.

This analysis also doesn't account for the fact that a bunch of the charters have moved neighborhood several times in the past few years, which makes the direct comparison of their student body composition and those of their most proximate DCPS poorly considered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://districtmeasured.com/2015/10/07/can-school-lotteries-make-schools-more-diverse/

Thanks for posting. As a data geek, this stuff is supremely interesting. I think it's key that they use the "at-risk" definition and not FARM. A family of 4 can earn up to $45,000 a year to qualify for FARM (reduced, not free, at that income level). That is obviously not a lot of money to live on in DC, but it's a very different world from a family scraping by on $15,000 a year from TANF and other forms of assistance.

Agreed that many of the "hot" charters don't have very high levels of at risk students. It's obvious from looking at the graph that the average line for charters is well below DCPS- this supports the general thesis that those who truly are the most at-risk are less likely to seek out charters.

But also note the 11 DCPS schools to the far left, all of which have at-risk numbers of 8% or less. Only one charter would be in that group- Yu Ying, at 4% at-risk. A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated.

Hey data geek, what city are you talking about when you say that "A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated"?

Hint -- please find and share these numbers...

In 2004,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

In 2014,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

Not the PP you are responding to but segregated public schools go hand in hand with segregated neighborhoods - because public schools tend to be neighborhood schools.

I'd suggest you check the demographic stats on charter schools - most of those are far less segregated than DCPS schools, because they are NOT neighborhood schools.

What's more, there's been a shifting demographic in DC, due to gentrification. Since people are no longer locked into only having one choice for their public school, that's making neighborhoods less segregated. And guess what - lo and behold, some of the public schools are gradually becoming less segregated now too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://districtmeasured.com/2015/10/07/can-school-lotteries-make-schools-more-diverse/

Thanks for posting. As a data geek, this stuff is supremely interesting. I think it's key that they use the "at-risk" definition and not FARM. A family of 4 can earn up to $45,000 a year to qualify for FARM (reduced, not free, at that income level). That is obviously not a lot of money to live on in DC, but it's a very different world from a family scraping by on $15,000 a year from TANF and other forms of assistance.

Agreed that many of the "hot" charters don't have very high levels of at risk students. It's obvious from looking at the graph that the average line for charters is well below DCPS- this supports the general thesis that those who truly are the most at-risk are less likely to seek out charters.

But also note the 11 DCPS schools to the far left, all of which have at-risk numbers of 8% or less. Only one charter would be in that group- Yu Ying, at 4% at-risk. A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated.

Hey data geek, what city are you talking about when you say that "A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated"?

Hint -- please find and share these numbers...

In 2004,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

In 2014,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

Not the PP you are responding to but segregated public schools go hand in hand with segregated neighborhoods - because public schools tend to be neighborhood schools.

I'd suggest you check the demographic stats on charter schools - most of those are far less segregated than DCPS schools, because they are NOT neighborhood schools.

What's more, there's been a shifting demographic in DC, due to gentrification. Since people are no longer locked into only having one choice for their public school, that's making neighborhoods less segregated. And guess what - lo and behold, some of the public schools are gradually becoming less segregated now too.

This article/discussion is only about the sub-population of at risk students, not total demographics. The word segregation in the title line has the potential and possibly the intent to throw off the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, redneck mom. Don't you have some frybread to make or something?

Sorry, I am too busy gentrifying DC so that it resembles the country we live in, not Nigeria, you know?

Generally it's not rednecks doing the gentrifying. They like their trailer parks and Walmarts too much and try to keep their distance from Whole Foods and dog parks. Plus there's nowhere in the city to park your oversized 4x4.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://districtmeasured.com/2015/10/07/can-school-lotteries-make-schools-more-diverse/

Thanks for posting. As a data geek, this stuff is supremely interesting. I think it's key that they use the "at-risk" definition and not FARM. A family of 4 can earn up to $45,000 a year to qualify for FARM (reduced, not free, at that income level). That is obviously not a lot of money to live on in DC, but it's a very different world from a family scraping by on $15,000 a year from TANF and other forms of assistance.

Agreed that many of the "hot" charters don't have very high levels of at risk students. It's obvious from looking at the graph that the average line for charters is well below DCPS- this supports the general thesis that those who truly are the most at-risk are less likely to seek out charters.

But also note the 11 DCPS schools to the far left, all of which have at-risk numbers of 8% or less. Only one charter would be in that group- Yu Ying, at 4% at-risk. A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated.

Hey data geek, what city are you talking about when you say that "A school system solely based on a severely segregated residential housing pattern will continue to be severely segregated"?

Hint -- please find and share these numbers...

In 2004,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

In 2014,
# kids attending DCPS schools:
# kids attending DC charter schools:

Not the PP you are responding to but segregated public schools go hand in hand with segregated neighborhoods - because public schools tend to be neighborhood schools.

I'd suggest you check the demographic stats on charter schools - most of those are far less segregated than DCPS schools, because they are NOT neighborhood schools.

What's more, there's been a shifting demographic in DC, due to gentrification. Since people are no longer locked into only having one choice for their public school, that's making neighborhoods less segregated. And guess what - lo and behold, some of the public schools are gradually becoming less segregated now too.

This article/discussion is only about the sub-population of at risk students, not total demographics. The word segregation in the title line has the potential and possibly the intent to throw off the discussion.

That doesn't really change anything in the response above, as the at-risk kids are typically very much be geographically concentrated, particularly in public housing, and thus far more likely to likewise end up concentrated in some of the neighborhood DCPS schools that serve those areas. Additionally, the parents of at-risk students are far more likely to make their school choice one of just taking the default neighborhood DCPS school option rather than exploring alternatives like charters.

[Anonymous]

Usually at risk kids are placed in schools through social services or guardians ad litum, not parents. And I'm pretty sure they can be and are placed without the lottery, at least in some cases, through the Student Placement Office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Usually at risk kids are placed in schools through social services or guardians ad litum, not parents. And I'm pretty sure they can be and are placed without the lottery, at least in some cases, through the Student Placement Office.

I've heard of spots reserved in DCPS for those types of placements. Is the same true for Charter schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh, redneck mom. Don't you have some frybread to make or something?

Sorry, I am too busy gentrifying DC so that it resembles the country we live in, not Nigeria, you know?

Generally it's not rednecks doing the gentrifying. They like their trailer parks and Walmarts too much and try to keep their distance from Whole Foods and dog parks. Plus there's nowhere in the city to park your oversized 4x4.

Say that a tad slower, to ensure the first PP gets it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Usually at risk kids are placed in schools through social services or guardians ad litum, not parents. And I'm pretty sure they can be and are placed without the lottery, at least in some cases, through the Student Placement Office.

I've heard of spots reserved in DCPS for those types of placements. Is the same true for Charter schools?

Yes, it's true.

People forget - or just don't know - that many at-risk kids are in foster care, which means they could be in any neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Usually at risk kids are placed in schools through social services or guardians ad litum, not parents. And I'm pretty sure they can be and are placed without the lottery, at least in some cases, through the Student Placement Office.

Not in charters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As noted, I too suspect that's true - but that's not something that can be supported from this data. For that, you'd need to know where the kids are coming from, where they would have gone instead, the population that applies to charters, etc. You could get the exact same data here if all of the Ward 7 and 8 charters pulled 5 or 10% of their kids (not at risk) from other wards. They'd still be lower at risk percentages than surrounding schools but it wouldn't have anything to do with pulling not at risk kids from surrounding schools (and given that kids travel further to charters, you can't really compare the charter next door to a traditional school to that DCPS school and conclude anything about that DCPS school - kids leaving that DCPS school just as likely went to some other charter). Now, I'm guessing that's not what's happening (pulling lots of not at risk kids from other wards) in most cases - but my point is this data isn't going to tell you that. And it's dangerous to go around saying data proves things it doesn't. The authors are using the data to say charters a no less segregated (and I think quite possibly implying they're more segregated - hard to tell). They're not saying anything about the impact on DCPS at all (though I think that'd be useful to look at). From what I can see, charters are slightly less segregated overall compared to DCPS (based on fewer schools on the extremes), but I don't have the breakdowns I'd need to conclude that at all.

Exactly, the extremes at either end are the real problem- either schools that are vast majority at-risk (which is a recipe for disaster), or those that have close to zero at-risk (which are by their nature exclusionary). But the extremes are a symptom of the overall racial and economic segregation of the city, so pretty tough to combat without major policy changes. It would be interesting to consider the concept that by keeping more middle class families in the public school system (in theory), charters are lowering the overall percentage of at-risk kids in the public schools, and how that would affect all of these numbers. It's not like there were a lot of kids from well-off families at Stanton or Garfield before charters were around.

Here's my question- what percentage of at-risk kids causes middle class families to flee en masse? Based on the data, it looks like it's around 25%. Pretty much all of the "hot" charters which presumably appeal the most to middle class families are below that line.

DCB is an anomaly when compared to the other DCI feeder schools with 36% at-risk. This is comparable to Bancroft which is near where the school was last year (36%) but still lower than Truesdell (55%) where the school is this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Usually at risk kids are placed in schools through social services or guardians ad litum, not parents. And I'm pretty sure they can be and are placed without the lottery, at least in some cases, through the Student Placement Office.

I've heard of spots reserved in DCPS for those types of placements. Is the same true for Charter schools?

DCPS has a lot more funding, resources and services available to support those kinds of placements than the charters do.