Black parent -- does school ranking matter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"/Please no racism/"

You first, OP.

Sure, when OP finds that high SES black children have bad test scores, she should close her eyes to that fact and hope for the best. Or she could research, ask for others' opinions, consider options, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I guess my question is whether it is worth investing in a home in a district like Langley or whatever versus living some place less expensive and investing those resources to supplement our children's educational experience since the outcomes are uniformly unacceptable for our student population, regardless of location. I know we can't rely on our schools to do everything, but I guess my question is whether it's better to just assume the worst and take things over at home/supplemental experiences/activities approach.

Excuse my ignorance, but why does it matter that you are black? It seems to me this is the same question that runs through the minds of all parents. What is different?

Not to hijack OP's thread but I think the difference is that the stakes are higher for black students (even high SES). Even those of us who are successful don't have generations of family members with strong academic records or that have worked in white collar jobs, or have a set history of financial stability. Outside of core family stability, education is really the only true pathway for progress in our communities.

I live in DC and struggled with this question that OP is asking. When my family moved to DC in 2005 I noticed that AA's of a higher SES resoundingly rejected, even the higher performing DCPS schools, especially for HS - many sent their kids to private. This has changed somewhat over the years, but I think the idea of sending a child to a mediocre school was out of the question. Families don't want to take a chance. The other thing I noticed were families with black boys left in elementary - quickly - in some cases because of bias by teachers and administrators. In my case we decided to stick with public, but we reevaluated every year. What really worked for us was making sure our DD's were with a strong cohort of friends, from all backgrounds and races, that valued education. If you go with a school that does not have a strong record of achievement that could be difficult to overcome in the middle and high school years. The key is you want to make sure your kids are prepared to take advantage of the offerings that MCPS provides. I also think that as kids get older it is difficult to supplement appropriately. I don't know how school funding works in MCPS but I can tell you that in DC, there is a vast difference in the extracurricular offerings at our middle school and those across town. Our kids only do one activity outside of school because the middle and high school offer so much.

Good Luck to you!

Did you really and truly say the bolded? Do you truly believe that? I am almost 50 years old and I know lots of multi-generationally college educated black folk. Please do not spread falsehoods. That "many of us" comment was way off base.
Back to the OP's question. We are in a very diverse school in MCPS. We love the diversity color, language, nationality. We did not want our children to somewhere that they were the only brown/black ones in the classroom. We are college educated and so our parents and grandparents. We honestly pay little attention to stats in terms of outcomes for black kids. We know what is expected of our kids, what we will do and picked a school that had overall sucessfull outcomes. We are extremely happy thus far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"/Please no racism/"

You first, OP.

No. Acknowledging that racism existed in the past and continues to exist =/= racism. Please stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I would suggest the SES analysis as well. If your kids are in a school where the black kids are upper middle class, their scores are going to be a lot higher than schools where the white/asian kids are upper middle class and most of the black kids are in a lower class bracket. My kids go to an FCPS school where (1) the FARMS rate is around 10% and it is not correlated to minority kids, and (2) the black kids actually did BETTER than the white kids in many of the tests this past spring. I wonder if the school has made a concerted effort to focus on bringing black kids' test scores up and in the process didn't notice some of the other kids barely getting by.

I wouldn't give up on public schools. IMO, test scores are even more important for a black family that expects their kids to leap over the achievement gap compared to the value of scores for the average white family. Many FCPS schools are assertively looking for bright minority students to participate in Young Scholars and AAP. What happens at home and the expectations you have for your children will be more important than any thing else.

do you realize that your whole post insinuates that black kids start below the bar. my kid did not have to leap over the achievement gap, my kid was not below average. Sometimes people take statistics and extrapolate them to an entire population. I am sure that intention was in no way malicious, but look again at what you are saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I guess my question is whether it is worth investing in a home in a district like Langley or whatever versus living some place less expensive and investing those resources to supplement our children's educational experience since the outcomes are uniformly unacceptable for our student population, regardless of location. I know we can't rely on our schools to do everything, but I guess my question is whether it's better to just assume the worst and take things over at home/supplemental experiences/activities approach.

Excuse my ignorance, but why does it matter that you are black? It seems to me this is the same question that runs through the minds of all parents. What is different?

Not to hijack OP's thread but I think the difference is that the stakes are higher for black students (even high SES). Even those of us who are successful don't have generations of family members with strong academic records or that have worked in white collar jobs, or have a set history of financial stability. Outside of core family stability, education is really the only true pathway for progress in our communities.

I live in DC and struggled with this question that OP is asking. When my family moved to DC in 2005 I noticed that AA's of a higher SES resoundingly rejected, even the higher performing DCPS schools, especially for HS - many sent their kids to private. This has changed somewhat over the years, but I think the idea of sending a child to a mediocre school was out of the question. Families don't want to take a chance. The other thing I noticed were families with black boys left in elementary - quickly - in some cases because of bias by teachers and administrators. In my case we decided to stick with public, but we reevaluated every year. What really worked for us was making sure our DD's were with a strong cohort of friends, from all backgrounds and races, that valued education. If you go with a school that does not have a strong record of achievement that could be difficult to overcome in the middle and high school years. The key is you want to make sure your kids are prepared to take advantage of the offerings that MCPS provides. I also think that as kids get older it is difficult to supplement appropriately. I don't know how school funding works in MCPS but I can tell you that in DC, there is a vast difference in the extracurricular offerings at our middle school and those across town. Our kids only do one activity outside of school because the middle and high school offer so much.

Good Luck to you!

Did you really and truly say the bolded? Do you truly believe that? I am almost 50 years old and I know lots of multi-generationally college educated black folk. Please do not spread falsehoods. That "many of us" comment was way off base.
Back to the OP's question. We are in a very diverse school in MCPS. We love the diversity color, language, nationality. We did not want our children to somewhere that they were the only brown/black ones in the classroom. We are college educated and so our parents and grandparents. We honestly pay little attention to stats in terms of outcomes for black kids. We know what is expected of our kids, what we will do and picked a school that had overall sucessfull outcomes. We are extremely happy thus far.

I forgot to add that we are a middle-upper middle class family in a neighborhood with like SES(for the most part)

[Anonymous]

OP here. I honestly don't want to get into a tumble about people's specific kids. My concerns were fairly concrete. We are house hunting, have small kids, and want the best for them. We have them in fantastic early childhood programs, but looking beyond, I am worried because I see gaps that exist in pyramids that were surprising. I honestly would love examples of places where these gaps do not exist and am happy to fork over my money (either through buying a house or private school) to such schools. But I do have concerns about how to allocate my resources.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I honestly don't want to get into a tumble about people's specific kids. My concerns were fairly concrete. We are house hunting, have small kids, and want the best for them. We have them in fantastic early childhood programs, but looking beyond, I am worried because I see gaps that exist in pyramids that were surprising. I honestly would love examples of places where these gaps do not exist and am happy to fork over my money (either through buying a house or private school) to such schools. But I do have concerns about how to allocate my resources.

This is 13:33 again.
I understand what you are saying, however I am wondering if you are doing a bit of 'overthinking'. I look at it like this, the achievement gap is a general statistic.
There are a number of factors that play into that. Now, at our school that statistic still exists, and closing that gap is a major goal of the principal. HOWEVER, when you look at a lot of the black/brown kids in say our DC's grades, a lot are doing well, my kid included. I think you want to look for diversity, families that look like you -- in terms of education and SES, folks of like mind and circumstance to some degree, and overall goals and program of the school. No, you don't want to go to a school where you know that 90% of the black kids are failing. But, I bet if you dove deeper there factors such as high poverty rates, etc. that are part of that equation. I honestly do not think you are going to find a school for which there is absolutely no so-called acheivement gap. You want to look at ALL of the factors. Personally, I would not want to put my kid in a school where statistically speaking the gap is "small", but that's because there are 15 black kids in the whole school. That's a whole 'nother can of worms I would not want to get into. Talk to families in the schools you are considering, there is no substitute for that.

[Anonymous]

OP, I can't speak to your school district specifically, but I do ed. research on achievement gap data (mostly for Latino kids, but the same trends apply).

In general:

achievement gaps track much more closely with SES than they do with race/ethnicity, but there is a very tight correlation between race/ethnicity and SES, *especially* in urban areas.

kids in at-risk* groups do better in schools where there are fewer numbers of at-risk kids. The worst outcomes are for poor kids in schools with high poverty populations in poor neighborhoods.

If I were you, I'd aim for the "better" middle class school, assuming that there's enough diversity in that school that your kids won't be one of only a few black kids in the class.

*I personally would not class a middle class black kid as an "at risk" kid, fwiw (and honestly, I really dislike the term as applied to individuals, anyway)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I can't speak to your school district specifically, but I do ed. research on achievement gap data (mostly for Latino kids, but the same trends apply).

In general:

achievement gaps track much more closely with SES than they do with race/ethnicity, but there is a very tight correlation between race/ethnicity and SES, *especially* in urban areas.

kids in at-risk* groups do better in schools where there are fewer numbers of at-risk kids. The worst outcomes are for poor kids in schools with high poverty populations in poor neighborhoods.

If I were you, I'd aim for the "better" middle class school, assuming that there's enough diversity in that school that your kids won't be one of only a few black kids in the class.

*I personally would not class a middle class black kid as an "at risk" kid, fwiw (and honestly, I really dislike the term as applied to individuals, anyway)

This!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I can't speak to your school district specifically, but I do ed. research on achievement gap data (mostly for Latino kids, but the same trends apply).

In general:

achievement gaps track much more closely with SES than they do with race/ethnicity, but there is a very tight correlation between race/ethnicity and SES, *especially* in urban areas.

kids in at-risk* groups do better in schools where there are fewer numbers of at-risk kids. The worst outcomes are for poor kids in schools with high poverty populations in poor neighborhoods.

If I were you, I'd aim for the "better" middle class school, assuming that there's enough diversity in that school that your kids won't be one of only a few black kids in the class.

*I personally would not class a middle class black kid as an "at risk" kid, fwiw (and honestly, I really dislike the term as applied to individuals, anyway)

OP was specifically referring to Yorktown, which is not urban and is high SES. I'm not sure your post was helpful to OP.

[Anonymous]

OP, I grew up in this area and went to DCPS. I had friends from my neighborhood that went to privates, and others who moved and went to the suburban "elite" public high schools. Looking at us as adults, there is little difference in outcomes based on the types of schools attended. When I was looking at schools for my kids, I focused on finding a school assignment where there would be a decent number of other middle-to-upper-middle class black families. Not all kids feel the need to have a peer group that looks like them, but some do, and if my kids fall into that category, then I want them to have a good peer group available. I think that is what made the difference for me and my peers growing up - none of us went to truly crappy schools - but ultimately, we were influenced and motivated by our peers to do well and succeed academically. I think this sort of environment can be difficult to find in the area public schools and that is why many black families look to privates. I don't know if that will be an option for us financially, so we just went with a diverse MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for the helpful responses. Seriously. I didn't really think about private school seriously but I may have to consider this option (and choose a cheaper place) if there isn't some sort of way to address the disparity.

Also -- pp do you know what MoCo school that was? I will add it to my house hunting list.

PP here. Barnsely was one I looked at. But, the scores aren't as good for MS. HS is just ok.

But I agree with PPs about looking at more than just test scores. I think for minorities, it is important to have kids who are like minded and your race in school. A lot of people who were the only one, or just a handful, of their race in school will tell you how uncomfortable it can be.

I would also look at Richard Montgomery or Quince Orchard HS cluster. The MSs and ESs can be spotty, so do check them out thoroughly, but as a HS, they have decent stats for Blacks and % represented.

FWIW - I live in the RM cluster and there are plenty of professional black families (a few who are lawyers) in my neighborhood.

You can go onto the MCPS website, to get the stats: http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/sharedaccountability/glance/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I can't speak to your school district specifically, but I do ed. research on achievement gap data (mostly for Latino kids, but the same trends apply).

In general:

achievement gaps track much more closely with SES than they do with race/ethnicity, but there is a very tight correlation between race/ethnicity and SES, *especially* in urban areas.

kids in at-risk* groups do better in schools where there are fewer numbers of at-risk kids. The worst outcomes are for poor kids in schools with high poverty populations in poor neighborhoods.

If I were you, I'd aim for the "better" middle class school, assuming that there's enough diversity in that school that your kids won't be one of only a few black kids in the class.

*I personally would not class a middle class black kid as an "at risk" kid, fwiw (and honestly, I really dislike the term as applied to individuals, anyway)

OP was specifically referring to Yorktown, which is not urban and is high SES. I'm not sure your post was helpful to OP.

OP I am in the Yorktown pyramid. I think you may find the SES of the subgroups' scores you looked at is very different from yours. We switched our kids to privates for smaller classrooms and a differentiated coursework. We knew our kids could work at a higher level than the school was provide and we wanted to have more say than deal with bureaucracy. Both my kids had been in the gifted program but I felt they could do and should be exposed to more than what was being offered. We are much more satisfied with peer group social dynamic and the uniform academic commitment.

[Anonymous]

School ranking and the percentage of FARM students matter to me. I want to make sure that my children are around like minded peers (students who value education) from similar families (high SES) regardless of race.

[Anonymous]

Go private.