Are men aware when they have sexist views about women and just don't care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

PP, I'm confused. What are his beliefs about contraception and non-abortion women's reproductive rights? Is his stance that women should have to pay for these things themselves? That they should not be covered by insurance?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

That's crazy. If I were you I'd be sooo tempted to say, "You know what? You're right, honey. I'm going off the pill!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

Like what? Is it degrading views?

An NP here. Just look at how many women (especially here on DCUM) talk about husbands/fathers. Although many men are poor partners in sharing household responsibilities, not all are and yet there are a lot of sexist stereotypes of fathers never helping with childcare, with husbands who don't help with household duties, with husbands who are big children and need their spouses to mother them. Despite the comments to the contrary posted by many here about how their spouses are not like the stereotypes, many women still stereotype and generalize about all men being like this.

It's been said by some male rights activists that men's role in the household is where women's roles in the office were some 30 years ago.

I couldn't be less of a male rights activist, but I do agree that some backwards views of men remain prevalent. I find it sad, for example, when people teach their children to look for a mommy only (instead of a daddy) when they are lost, or when men alone with their children at a playground get funny looks. Fine, men are more likely to commit crimes against children, but those types of crimes are incredibly unlikely anyway. (I'm talking stranger-danger; abuse within a family is unfortunately more common.)

As for the rest of your post, I can report that many of the sexist stereotypes about DH pitching in around the house less than me are 100% grounded in reality. Stereotypes often do have a basis in reality. But no, we shouldn't assume that all men are like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

This. It does go both ways. Of course, those women would say they are making factual observations...and sometimes they'd be right.

As I've gotten older and more experienced, I've come to accept that there are things about men and women that are different...we are not all identical, equal and exactly the same. Pretending otherwise is silly and living in denial.

What that means is that I've gotten more comfortable with some of my "sexist" views - on some topics, related only to some very specific traits. There are a ton of areas in which gender or biology just don't make any difference whatsoever, and I think generally, when people speak pejoratively of "sexist" comments, they mean people who have sexist attitudes where those differences just don't exist. But on some topics, as a general rule of thumb, those differences are real.

I'm a very progressive, liberal person; I believe in treating women fairly (eg, paying the same money for the same work, etc., etc.) and hope that someday, if I have a daughter, the world is as open to her as it would be a son. But I also know that men and women aren't identical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

Like what? Is it degrading views?

Yes, degrading views. There are really fucked up perceptions about masculinity. In both cases, many people can point to examples that back up their opinions and consider those opinions to be validated. I notice this especially in discussions of parenting and sex. It's generally assumed that men need women to teach them how to parent. When my first child was born, I didn't know anything more about raising children than my husband did. We learned together. It was always assumed that I was the expert and he was simply a student of mine, which was hardly the case. When it comes to discussions of men and sex, it's generally assumed that men are just all sex all the time. Little allowance is made for men who want to feel emotionally connected to their partners.

I think that the difference is that sexist opinions about women are more dangerous. Workplace discrimination still very much exists, as witnessed by the story earlier this month about the IBM executives talking about how they don't like hiring women because they'll just go get pregnant over and over. Sexual violence does happen to men, but not at anywhere near the rate it happens to women. Men are not generally targeted because of their gender - for street harassment, for violent crime, etc.

If there is one thing I learned during the #YesAllWomen fad earlier this summer, it's that many men are actually oblivious to the misogyny that pervades our culture. The converse is also true, though, in that it's often hard for women to understand and relate to men's experiences of discrimination.

Well said. I also was surprised by #YesAllWomen; I had conversations with thoughtful men who were shocked that assault was so common. But I also think there are a lot of women who don't want to see how much of a straitjacket men are expected to stay in as far as gender roles, who don't want to believe that being a breadwinner is incredibly stressful over the years, who prefer to see men as stereotypes. Goes both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

Like what? Is it degrading views?

Men are pedophiles
Men are abusers
Men are dangerous
Men are creepy
Men are not as good as women at parenting
Men are idiots
Men should take care of women, keep women happy, protect them
Men shouldn't control but should be okay with being controlled
Men can't really be victims of rape or sexual assault or abuse
Men create their own problems, and should just deal with it.
Men aren't really victims of domestic violence - they are stronger
Men who express emotion or experience anxiety and depression are weak or needy or not taking responsibility for themselves

etc....

You forgot one. I find the forced feminization very offensive.

Men are pigs for having normal, male sexual interest and arousal, ie interest in looking at female features.

This is what I mean about men being sexist without an awareness of their sexism.

You are normal and no one calls you a pig for being attracted or aroused by "female features" as you refer to women.

You are a sexist pig and a creepy lecherous man if you use "elevator eyes" to intimidate a woman to move to another area of the metro or walk on the other side of the street when she sees you looking at her "female features." Or if you stare at a woman's chest instead of maintaining eye contact even in an office and even when the woman is not wearing any revealing attire.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

Like what? Is it degrading views?

Men are pedophiles
Men are abusers
Men are dangerous
Men are creepy
Men are not as good as women at parenting
Men are idiots
Men should take care of women, keep women happy, protect them
Men shouldn't control but should be okay with being controlled
Men can't really be victims of rape or sexual assault or abuse
Men create their own problems, and should just deal with it.
Men aren't really victims of domestic violence - they are stronger
Men who express emotion or experience anxiety and depression are weak or needy or not taking responsibility for themselves

etc....

This is an example of how patriarchy hurts everyone. Every single one of those stereotypes comes from the urge to maintain patriarchal power structures with women in "lesser" stay-at-home roles and typecast as nurturers and weaker partners. If you want a truly equitable world, you have to dismantle patriarchy from both sides.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

PP, I'm confused. What are his beliefs about contraception and non-abortion women's reproductive rights? Is his stance that women should have to pay for these things themselves? That they should not be covered by insurance?

That was definitely his position with regard to our Hobby Lobby argument. Why should the government force insurance companies to cover it just so that women can have sex, was basically his view, only in many, many more words. I see that as a perceptible shift from, why should the government force insurance companies to cover anything, which is a fine policy view to have if you have a different conception of gov't. For the record, he is 100% on board with the individual mandate.

Also: If you (a woman) want to have sex, you (a woman) should be responsible for the consequences. And: I don't care that clinics that provide gynecologic care to women are being forced to close due to restrictive abortion laws, they aren't entitled to free care. Etc. I consider all of these things to be feminist issues. I get how reasonable people can disagree, but like I said, he's otherwise socially liberal, votes Democratic, is down with equal treatment for women, and is not religious. Except for the latent Catholic guilt. Maybe that explains it all...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

Like what? Is it degrading views?

Men are pedophiles
Men are abusers
Men are dangerous
Men are creepy
Men are not as good as women at parenting
Men are idiots
Men should take care of women, keep women happy, protect them
Men shouldn't control but should be okay with being controlled
Men can't really be victims of rape or sexual assault or abuse
Men create their own problems, and should just deal with it.
Men aren't really victims of domestic violence - they are stronger
Men who express emotion or experience anxiety and depression are weak or needy or not taking responsibility for themselves

etc....

This is an example of how patriarchy hurts everyone. Every single one of those stereotypes comes from the urge to maintain patriarchal power structures with women in "lesser" stay-at-home roles and typecast as nurturers and weaker partners. If you want a truly equitable world, you have to dismantle patriarchy from both sides.

I disagree. It isn't always about women being victims. Sometimes it really is an anti-male sentiment and ignorance about men as victims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

That's crazy. If I were you I'd be sooo tempted to say, "You know what? You're right, honey. I'm going off the pill!"

I know, right? And believe me, I am tempted. We are expecting our 2nd and I'm not much in the mood these days anyway!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

PP, I'm confused. What are his beliefs about contraception and non-abortion women's reproductive rights? Is his stance that women should have to pay for these things themselves? That they should not be covered by insurance?

That was definitely his position with regard to our Hobby Lobby argument. Why should the government force insurance companies to cover it just so that women can have sex, was basically his view, only in many, many more words. I see that as a perceptible shift from, why should the government force insurance companies to cover anything, which is a fine policy view to have if you have a different conception of gov't. For the record, he is 100% on board with the individual mandate.

Also: If you (a woman) want to have sex, you (a woman) should be responsible for the consequences. And: I don't care that clinics that provide gynecologic care to women are being forced to close due to restrictive abortion laws, they aren't entitled to free care. Etc. I consider all of these things to be feminist issues. I get how reasonable people can disagree, but like I said, he's otherwise socially liberal, votes Democratic, is down with equal treatment for women, and is not religious. Except for the latent Catholic guilt. Maybe that explains it all...

Oh, that probably explains it. He at least subconciously sees non-procreative sex as shameful and sinful. The sexist part is that it's only shameful for women to have sex; the men they've having sex with are not doing anything wrong and don't have any responsibility for preventing the conception of children, or taking care of the children that are conceived when birth control isn't used.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lots of women have sexist views of men and are either just as ignorant or just don't care.

It goes both ways.

This. It does go both ways. Of course, those women would say they are making factual observations...and sometimes they'd be right.

As I've gotten older and more experienced, I've come to accept that there are things about men and women that are different...we are not all identical, equal and exactly the same. Pretending otherwise is silly and living in denial.

What that means is that I've gotten more comfortable with some of my "sexist" views - on some topics, related only to some very specific traits. There are a ton of areas in which gender or biology just don't make any difference whatsoever, and I think generally, when people speak pejoratively of "sexist" comments, they mean people who have sexist attitudes where those differences just don't exist. But on some topics, as a general rule of thumb, those differences are real.

I'm a very progressive, liberal person; I believe in treating women fairly (eg, paying the same money for the same work, etc., etc.) and hope that someday, if I have a daughter, the world is as open to her as it would be a son. But I also know that men and women aren't identical.

I'm the PP psychoanalyzing her husband in some of the other posts. His view may be something close to this. We have a daughter and are expecting a son and he's already making jokes about how we'll raise them differently. I can tell he's mostly joking but some seriousness. You do have to recognize differences in bringing up daughters vs. sons, even as you fight against perpetuating those differences (responsibility for birth control, for example, just to continue a theme - it should be shared, but realistically the risk falls mostly on the girl). He would never, ever suggest that she couldn't be whatever she wanted professionally, couldn't play sports, etc., though. As you point out, sex and biology don't make a difference in those areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

PP, I'm confused. What are his beliefs about contraception and non-abortion women's reproductive rights? Is his stance that women should have to pay for these things themselves? That they should not be covered by insurance?

That was definitely his position with regard to our Hobby Lobby argument. Why should the government force insurance companies to cover it just so that women can have sex, was basically his view, only in many, many more words. I see that as a perceptible shift from, why should the government force insurance companies to cover anything, which is a fine policy view to have if you have a different conception of gov't. For the record, he is 100% on board with the individual mandate.

Also: If you (a woman) want to have sex, you (a woman) should be responsible for the consequences. And: I don't care that clinics that provide gynecologic care to women are being forced to close due to restrictive abortion laws, they aren't entitled to free care. Etc. I consider all of these things to be feminist issues. I get how reasonable people can disagree, but like I said, he's otherwise socially liberal, votes Democratic, is down with equal treatment for women, and is not religious. Except for the latent Catholic guilt. Maybe that explains it all...

Oh, that probably explains it. He at least subconciously sees non-procreative sex as shameful and sinful. The sexist part is that it's only shameful for women to have sex; the men they've having sex with are not doing anything wrong and don't have any responsibility for preventing the conception of children, or taking care of the children that are conceived when birth control isn't used.

Right. Highly frustrating.

He would never admit these are really his views, btw. But it comes through when we really start discussing things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DH is generally socially progressive and feminist in plenty of ways. He's almost reactionary when it comes to birth control and women's (non-abortion) reproductive rights. We had extensive arguments about the recent Hobby Lobby decision. I realize these issues are complex, but he is not religious and definitely had premarital sex. I consider his views to be sexist. Abortion is obviously an ethically more complex issue so I am leaving that to the side when explaining his views.

That sounds so bizarre. Personal question, but do the two of you use contraception? If so, how would he react if you suggested stopping, and as a result either having a much larger family, or drastically restricting your sex life?

It's completely bizarre. We definitely use contraception and did for the multiple years before we got married too. Both of us had prior partners and are aware of each other's history. We're your basic mid-30s socially progressive, yuppie east coasters. And, I currently outearn him and am definitely not a shrinking violet when it comes to expressing myself, including strongly held feminist viewpoints. He obviously likes these things about me, both because he has said so and because he married me.

We're generally very happy and we argue with each other frequently (both lawyers), so arguing over contraception policy is more or less right in our wheelhouse. But it is odd to me that he's got these views in particular and this forum seemed like a good opportunity to chime in and express my puzzlement. Heck, I've told HIM that it's puzzling. I've also made the arguments about what how we would manage our family size if I wasn't on the pill, i.e., no sex. I think he's too stubborn to admit I've got him there.

PP, I'm confused. What are his beliefs about contraception and non-abortion women's reproductive rights? Is his stance that women should have to pay for these things themselves? That they should not be covered by insurance?

That was definitely his position with regard to our Hobby Lobby argument. Why should the government force insurance companies to cover it just so that women can have sex, was basically his view, only in many, many more words. I see that as a perceptible shift from, why should the government force insurance companies to cover anything, which is a fine policy view to have if you have a different conception of gov't. For the record, he is 100% on board with the individual mandate.

Also: If you (a woman) want to have sex, you (a woman) should be responsible for the consequences. And: I don't care that clinics that provide gynecologic care to women are being forced to close due to restrictive abortion laws, they aren't entitled to free care. Etc. I consider all of these things to be feminist issues. I get how reasonable people can disagree, but like I said, he's otherwise socially liberal, votes Democratic, is down with equal treatment for women, and is not religious. Except for the latent Catholic guilt. Maybe that explains it all...

Does he feel the same way about insurance covering Viagra and its ilk?