Got a Smart Kid Applying for College Anytime Soon? Read this NYT Article (if you haven't yet)

[Anonymous]

That is a huge increase in foreign students at Yale, four fold!

What are the legacy numbers at Yale?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if I am articulating my question clearly, so please humor me, but if you account for all of the extra "randomly fired off" applications that do not fall within the Ivy's selection profile, then is the selectivity still dramatically different than it was 20 years ago? In the 80's was the applicant pool largely comprised of qualified students? I guess that I am curious about the acceptance rate for applicants that mirror the profile of the current freshman class.

I think I understand. You're asking whether the accepted student profile has gotten measurably stronger, I think. In other words, would a student admitted in the 1980s (30-35 years ago!) still be admitted today? It's a hard question, but I think the best way to answer might be to look at the average SAT scores for admitted students. Have they changed significantly. or are they still roughly the same? That's not a perfect answer, but it might give a good estimate.

[Anonymous]

I think the analysis has to capture something that is uncapturable, that is, the range in scores/grades in the entire applicant pool. Only the admissions office knows for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if I am articulating my question clearly, so please humor me, but if you account for all of the extra "randomly fired off" applications that do not fall within the Ivy's selection profile, then is the selectivity still dramatically different than it was 20 years ago? In the 80's was the applicant pool largely comprised of qualified students? I guess that I am curious about the acceptance rate for applicants that mirror the profile of the current freshman class.

I think I understand. You're asking whether the accepted student profile has gotten measurably stronger, I think. In other words, would a student admitted in the 1980s (30-35 years ago!) still be admitted today? It's a hard question, but I think the best way to answer might be to look at the average SAT scores for admitted students. Have they changed significantly. or are they still roughly the same? That's not a perfect answer, but it might give a good estimate.

25th percentile of 2013 incoming class (verbal/math) = 710/710
25th percentile of 1985 incoming class = 620/640

75th percentile of 2013 incoming class = 800/790
75th percentile of 1985 incoming class = 720/730

Definitely a significant increase in SAT scores of attending students. Some of that might be attributable to the SAT "recentering" that occurred in the mid-1990s, but surely not all of it.

FWIW, of 1359 matriculating students ...
55% of matriculants came from public high schools.
45% of matriculants came from independent, parochial, and other schools.
14% of matriculants were children of Yale alumni.

Total University Enrollments* (non-International):
Black or African American: 8%
American Indian/Alaska Native: 2%
Asian: 17%
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander: <1%
Hispanic of any race: 8%
White: 62%
Race/ethnicity unknown: 3%

[Anonymous]

Also factor in the fact that test prep is all but ubiquitous nowadays for kids who are applying to Ivies and similar. Back in the 80ties, it was mostly the kids on the coasts who were "prepped"

I think when all it's said and done, it'll be more informative to know the class rank of those who got in rather than test scores since that's a better indication of how the ones who got in are relative to their peers. I suspect it's the very top students who get in now and That's not changed since the 80ties.

[Anonymous]

Only many schools don't rank. Sidwell, Holton Arms.

[Anonymous]

Those Yale numbers (public, private, legacy) exceed 100%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those Yale numbers (public, private, legacy) exceed 100%.

Think about it for a second. You'll see what's going on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yale has good statistics. Int'l students have risen from 3-4% in 1990 to 11% in 2014. But increases the difficulty for other applicants by 7-8%, that's not nearly as big a deal as these articles make it out to be. I really think lots of this "new" selectivity has to do with simply more applications from the same batch of students.
file:///C:/Users/Brent/Desktop/B5_Intl_Student_Enrollment_1987_1999.pdf
http://oir.yale.edu/sites/default/files/FACTSHEET(2013-14).pdf
http://oir.yale.edu/1976-2000-yale-book-numbers

Good sourcing. For 1987-1988, the first year for which I saw specific numbers for foreign students in Yale College (undergraduate), the percentage was 2% -- so it's actually a five-fold increase.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if I am articulating my question clearly, so please humor me, but if you account for all of the extra "randomly fired off" applications that do not fall within the Ivy's selection profile, then is the selectivity still dramatically different than it was 20 years ago? In the 80's was the applicant pool largely comprised of qualified students? I guess that I am curious about the acceptance rate for applicants that mirror the profile of the current freshman class.

I think I understand. You're asking whether the accepted student profile has gotten measurably stronger, I think. In other words, would a student admitted in the 1980s (30-35 years ago!) still be admitted today? It's a hard question, but I think the best way to answer might be to look at the average SAT scores for admitted students. Have they changed significantly. or are they still roughly the same? That's not a perfect answer, but it might give a good estimate.

This isn't scientific by any means, and I can't post a link (so feel free to skip over this) but I saw a yearbook from one of the private schools in town from the late 1980s and they definitely had many more students going to Yale and other Ivies. I wish I could remember the number but I think it ended up being something like 40% of the class. You could make an argument that with this private school being more affordable in the 1980s the overall cohort was brighter (more smart middle class kids?), but it's still a selective and sought-after school that has a lot of National Merit Semifinalists so I don't think you can just argue that the current student body is much weaker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those Yale numbers (public, private, legacy) exceed 100%.

Clearly you didn't go to Yale!

Legacies go to high school too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Another aspect: Foreign students are often wealthy and pay full tuition. Schools know that. Admissions for foreign students are not need blind.

It's troubling ... why should tax exempt institutions short-change the offspring of taxpaying citizens? (I probably sound like a lunatic right winger. I'm the opposite of that!)

21:01 Everyone I know who went to highly selective schools in the 80s knows the acceptance rates were might higher.[/quote


Having just been through the college applications process with a DC who wanted engineering, they were rejected from many schools that naviance claimed they would have no trouble getting into. Very distressing for DC.

The other point the article did little to expand was the huge marketing programs that many of the these schools do to get kids to apply thinking they have a chance. The schools are spending money so they can get their acceptance rates down and look more prestigious.

[Anonymous]

Both my husband and I are very successful (Ivy degrees, etc.). He made partner in Big Law. Our kids are confident and gifted. They are not afraid of competition and they will be winners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure if I am articulating my question clearly, so please humor me, but if you account for all of the extra "randomly fired off" applications that do not fall within the Ivy's selection profile, then is the selectivity still dramatically different than it was 20 years ago? In the 80's was the applicant pool largely comprised of qualified students? I guess that I am curious about the acceptance rate for applicants that mirror the profile of the current freshman class.

I think I understand. You're asking whether the accepted student profile has gotten measurably stronger, I think. In other words, would a student admitted in the 1980s (30-35 years ago!) still be admitted today? It's a hard question, but I think the best way to answer might be to look at the average SAT scores for admitted students. Have they changed significantly. or are they still roughly the same? That's not a perfect answer, but it might give a good estimate.

There's been quite a bit of grade inflation in many schools. Some even juice GPAs for AP courses, so the student stats seem higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There isn't anything new here except more applications, lower admit rates, more schools in the single digit zone. Not a great article. No analysis of legacy trends or foreign student applications and admits.

It's news to plenty of people. For example, someone in their 40s might have read that Yale has a 6% acceptance rate but not have realized that the rate was 20%+ when they applied in the 1980s. The historical overview, even in summary fashion, is helpful to put this issue in perspective.

Right. There are plenty of Ivy grads who might not make the cut today, but are wholly unaware of how the odds have changed over a generation.

You mean that Cornell is no longer a safety?