Reach vs. Possibility vs. Safety?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a top kid -- I mean like top 10% or higher SATs and GPA but no "hook" like being an underrepresented minority, playing a sport or having a unique talent or strength, then I'd say be careful with applying to Ivies. When competing for college acceptance at the highest levels, almost no one can consider themselves "likely" for admission. If you are going the Ivy (or Ivy equivalent) route, I'd advise applying to a few more schools than typical, and including a true safety like UMD, Michigan, Tulane, Penn State.

These are safeties? (Or do you mean for that top 10% student who has a chance at the Ivies?)

These are safeties just for top students. I'll note that PSU seems to love students from around here and Michigan is starting to feel the love as well. I've heard that Tulane has been know to reject top students if they feel they're using Tulane as a safety.

[Anonymous]

Like high school, if you want to really get a sense of how strong a college student is take a look at the specific courses taken along with the grades. And grade inflation varies significantly among the most selective schools -- Harvard vs. Princeton for example, -- big difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Not a guarantee, but it does increase one's chances.
My DC's class had several very strong minority students. Their admissions were more impressive than those of their white or Asian peers with equally great credentials. The kids themselves admitted that their skin color gave them the edge. Their friends did not really begrudge their success... everyone worked equally hard for their goals and they realize that's the way the system works.

It's not the kids who determine whether skin color gives the edge, it's the colleges who make the decision.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Not a guarantee, but it does increase one's chances.
My DC's class had several very strong minority students. Their admissions were more impressive than those of their white or Asian peers with equally great credentials. The kids themselves admitted that their skin color gave them the edge. Their friends did not really begrudge their success... everyone worked equally hard for their goals and they realize that's the way the system works.

It's not the kids who determine whether skin color gives the edge, it's the colleges who make the decision.

who says they don't?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a top kid -- I mean like top 10% or higher SATs and GPA but no "hook" like being an underrepresented minority, playing a sport or having a unique talent or strength, then I'd say be careful with applying to Ivies. When competing for college acceptance at the highest levels, almost no one can consider themselves "likely" for admission. If you are going the Ivy (or Ivy equivalent) route, I'd advise applying to a few more schools than typical, and including a true safety like UMD, Michigan, Tulane, Penn State.

There are so many highly qualified, high academic and test score applicants that the underrepresented minority is becoming passe. If anything, they are competing among themselves for the selective slots AND there scores are just as good if not better than the top 10% of non-white students.

I personally know 7 black students (private and public schools) who were early admit to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. Every one of them had superior grades and scores, attended top flight private and public in this area, and ranked in single digits (one school does not rank). There is absolutely no doubt they were admitted for their outstanding credentials. If the Ivy schools salivated and did not look beyond their skin color, that's their problem.

People should stop assuming that underrepresented minorities are solely admitted because of their skin color. Harvard or any of the other top schools will not admit someone who can't carry their academic weight regardless if they are the first purple person on earth. Richard Sherman (football) may be rambunctious and was most likely admitted for sports, he had a 3.7 GPA at Stanford.

Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Oh please. URM is a huge hook, equivalent to hundreds of SAT points. It does not guarantee admission, but it sure increases one's chances. Just take a stroll through some College Confidential accepted student threads to see the advantage being a URM provides.

As for Sherman's grades, it is well known that everybody does well at the top schools. Grade inflation there is out of control. As they say, the only thing harder than getting into an an an Ivy, is failing out.

While it is true that failing out of an Ivy is almost impossible, it's not due to grade inflation. In fact, the idea of grade inflation is a lie.

As an Ivy grad, I can assure you everyone works their asses off for every grade they receive and not everyone gets an A. However, there are lots of A's given simply because you're dealing with the cream of the crop, best of the best students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Not a guarantee, but it does increase one's chances.
My DC's class had several very strong minority students. Their admissions were more impressive than those of their white or Asian peers with equally great credentials. The kids themselves admitted that their skin color gave them the edge. Their friends did not really begrudge their success... everyone worked equally hard for their goals and they realize that's the way the system works.

What a nice, quaint, pat story. Fits so nicely into the stereotype of the black kid getting in based on race alone. It also reaks of bull. As an educator and parent of a senior, I can assure you this little scenario makes zero sense. Students simply do not have those types of conversations. I've never heard it once in 20+ years of education. And my DC tells me that it's not a conversation had among peers because it's sad. No one wants to think of leaving high school and parting with their friends forever, so there's little to no discussion surrounding colleges, credentials, etc.

Furthermore, no one can know whose credentials were better. The white or Asian kids may have 4.0's but the black kids could have 3.8's with more AP courses, an after school job and/or unique story. I simply don't know how your child would know who had which credentials. Did DC see transcripts or is he simply taking their words for it? And what senior takes a poll of credentials and notes them by race? Also, did all of these kids apply EA?

And black kids admitting that their skin color gave them the edge? That's another load of bull. The LAST thing a black child wants to THINK much less admit is that he's inferior and unworthy of a spot that was given to him solely based on race.

Come back with a better story next time.

This one is full of so much BS it STINKS.

[Anonymous]

^^^You hit it right on the head!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Not a guarantee, but it does increase one's chances.
My DC's class had several very strong minority students. Their admissions were more impressive than those of their white or Asian peers with equally great credentials. The kids themselves admitted that their skin color gave them the edge. Their friends did not really begrudge their success... everyone worked equally hard for their goals and they realize that's the way the system works.

What a nice, quaint, pat story. Fits so nicely into the stereotype of the black kid getting in based on race alone. It also reaks of bull. As an educator and parent of a senior, I can assure you this little scenario makes zero sense. Students simply do not have those types of conversations. I've never heard it once in 20+ years of education. And my DC tells me that it's not a conversation had among peers because it's sad. No one wants to think of leaving high school and parting with their friends forever, so there's little to no discussion surrounding colleges, credentials, etc.

Furthermore, no one can know whose credentials were better. The white or Asian kids may have 4.0's but the black kids could have 3.8's with more AP courses, an after school job and/or unique story. I simply don't know how your child would know who had which credentials. Did DC see transcripts or is he simply taking their words for it? And what senior takes a poll of credentials and notes them by race? Also, did all of these kids apply EA?

And black kids admitting that their skin color gave them the edge? That's another load of bull. The LAST thing a black child wants to THINK much less admit is that he's inferior and unworthy of a spot that was given to him solely based on race.

Come back with a better story next time.

This one is full of so much BS it STINKS.

Mind, nowhere did I suggest that the black kids were inferior in any way. They were strong students with great ECs. However, you are entitled to your opinion based on your limited experience.
This was not the class of 2014. The nature of conversations changes as the senior year draws to an end. And the kids are just as excited to begin their new life as they are sad to part with old friends.

[Anonymous]

The idea of grade inflation at Ivies is not a lie. Yale's been studying this very thing. Google it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a top kid -- I mean like top 10% or higher SATs and GPA but no "hook" like being an underrepresented minority, playing a sport or having a unique talent or strength, then I'd say be careful with applying to Ivies. When competing for college acceptance at the highest levels, almost no one can consider themselves "likely" for admission. If you are going the Ivy (or Ivy equivalent) route, I'd advise applying to a few more schools than typical, and including a true safety like UMD, Michigan, Tulane, Penn State.

There are so many highly qualified, high academic and test score applicants that the underrepresented minority is becoming passe. If anything, they are competing among themselves for the selective slots AND there scores are just as good if not better than the top 10% of non-white students.

I personally know 7 black students (private and public schools) who were early admit to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. Every one of them had superior grades and scores, attended top flight private and public in this area, and ranked in single digits (one school does not rank). There is absolutely no doubt they were admitted for their outstanding credentials. If the Ivy schools salivated and did not look beyond their skin color, that's their problem.

People should stop assuming that underrepresented minorities are solely admitted because of their skin color. Harvard or any of the other top schools will not admit someone who can't carry their academic weight regardless if they are the first purple person on earth. Richard Sherman (football) may be rambunctious and was most likely admitted for sports, he had a 3.7 GPA at Stanford.

Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Oh please. URM is a huge hook, equivalent to hundreds of SAT points. It does not guarantee admission, but it sure increases one's chances. Just take a stroll through some College Confidential accepted student threads to see the advantage being a URM provides.

As for Sherman's grades, it is well known that everybody does well at the top schools. Grade inflation there is out of control. As they say, the only thing harder than getting into an an an Ivy, is failing out.

While it is true that failing out of an Ivy is almost impossible, it's not due to grade inflation. In fact, the idea of grade inflation is a lie.

As an Ivy grad, I can assure you everyone works their asses off for every grade they receive and not everyone gets an A. However, there are lots of A's given simply because you're dealing with the cream of the crop, best of the best students.

Sounds like a serious case of selection bias, "because we are all so smart here (as validated by our admission) most everyone deserves an A." As for grade inflation, Princeton had to put a cap on the number of As professors were handing out. "Grade deflation" was not only not a lie, it was policy. It looks like now Princeton may reverse that policy after nearly a decade because it is "not consistent with our educational goals." And so the grade inflation continues.

[Anonymous]

18:15 above wrote in part: " This was not the class of 2014. The nature of conversations changes as the senior year draws to an end. And the kids are just as excited to begin their new life as they are sad to part with old friends."

This is our current experience with our high school senior as well. Maybe it varies depending upon the high school you attend. Our child is in a relatively smaller, private school. Everyone in the class knows perfectly well who are the top students, middle students, and struggling students based on the rigor of the classes they have taken, their comments in those classes, peer review of exams and homework assignments, etc. When I attended public school, we knew who made the National Honor society as a junior, who didn't make it until senior year, and who didn't make it at all. In some privates, there is comparable group (cum laude). In smaller schools, almost everyone knows each other's business. This year, as students are accepted early decision/early action to schools -- and often when they are deferred or rejected as well -- almost all of them not only tell each other, they post it on their Facebook pages.

I leave it to others to debate the value of racial, ethnic or socio-economic status in the college acceptance game, but I assure you that the kids at least at our DC's school know a great deal about their relative academic strengths -- as well as, of course, who is a great athlete, musician, singer, robotics champion etc. The kids don't know who would be ranked number 4 vs 5 or 26 vs 27, but they have a good idea of what is going on. They know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:18:15 above wrote in part: " This was not the class of 2014. The nature of conversations changes as the senior year draws to an end. And the kids are just as excited to begin their new life as they are sad to part with old friends."

This is our current experience with our high school senior as well. Maybe it varies depending upon the high school you attend. Our child is in a relatively smaller, private school. Everyone in the class knows perfectly well who are the top students, middle students, and struggling students based on the rigor of the classes they have taken, their comments in those classes, peer review of exams and homework assignments, etc. When I attended public school, we knew who made the National Honor society as a junior, who didn't make it until senior year, and who didn't make it at all. In some privates, there is comparable group (cum laude). In smaller schools, almost everyone knows each other's business. This year, as students are accepted early decision/early action to schools -- and often when they are deferred or rejected as well -- almost all of them not only tell each other, they post it on their Facebook pages.

I leave it to others to debate the value of racial, ethnic or socio-economic status in the college acceptance game, but I assure you that the kids at least at our DC's school know a great deal about their relative academic strengths -- as well as, of course, who is a great athlete, musician, singer, robotics champion etc. The kids don't know who would be ranked number 4 vs 5 or 26 vs 27, but they have a good idea of what is going on. They know.

If they don't know rank, they don't have a good idea of what is going on. Class rank is more solid and important than a 'hunch' about perceived academic strengths.

To that, I would like to re-emphasis the following questions to the poster who made the claim about all the minorities with more impressive acceptances in DC's class:

1. Did DC see the TRANSCRIPTS of these students?

2. Did DC see the APPLICATIONS/ESSAYS before they were submitted? A shoddy, last minute app with a weak essay is not as appealing as one that was well-thought out.

3. Does DC know what the students shared about themselves in the essays?

4. How many black/hispanic kids admitted they were accepted based on race? And exactly how did that conversation come up again ? And were those minority students in the admissions offices when those decisions were being made? Do they know how they stacked up against the entire applicant pool? Did those minority students have access to everyone's transcripts, essays, etc?

5. Since when have minority students been okay with...

You know what? I have been black all my life, and I can assure you that is NOT the kind of discussion a black child would have. They've likely spent much of their HS years feeling a bit odd from being the only black kid in the class. (Been there done that too. You become the poster child for every single stereotype the other kids have every had. The last stereotype you'd want to play into is the one of "You only got in cause you're black.) No minority student would be okay with thinking that, much less saying it. It's the white kids who love to talk about racial privilege. No other race does that. Blacks don't do it. Asians don't do it. And neither do Hispanics. Those are 3 groups that are SICK of being stereotypes--even the good ones. (Asian kids don't like the idea that they get straight A's because they're Asian.)

Of course the aforementioned are all rhetorical questions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you have a top kid -- I mean like top 10% or higher SATs and GPA but no "hook" like being an underrepresented minority, playing a sport or having a unique talent or strength, then I'd say be careful with applying to Ivies. When competing for college acceptance at the highest levels, almost no one can consider themselves "likely" for admission. If you are going the Ivy (or Ivy equivalent) route, I'd advise applying to a few more schools than typical, and including a true safety like UMD, Michigan, Tulane, Penn State.

There are so many highly qualified, high academic and test score applicants that the underrepresented minority is becoming passe. If anything, they are competing among themselves for the selective slots AND there scores are just as good if not better than the top 10% of non-white students.

I personally know 7 black students (private and public schools) who were early admit to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and Stanford. Every one of them had superior grades and scores, attended top flight private and public in this area, and ranked in single digits (one school does not rank). There is absolutely no doubt they were admitted for their outstanding credentials. If the Ivy schools salivated and did not look beyond their skin color, that's their problem.

People should stop assuming that underrepresented minorities are solely admitted because of their skin color. Harvard or any of the other top schools will not admit someone who can't carry their academic weight regardless if they are the first purple person on earth. Richard Sherman (football) may be rambunctious and was most likely admitted for sports, he had a 3.7 GPA at Stanford.

Simply having a "hook" as a minority no way guarantees admission.

Oh please. URM is a huge hook, equivalent to hundreds of SAT points. It does not guarantee admission, but it sure increases one's chances. Just take a stroll through some College Confidential accepted student threads to see the advantage being a URM provides.

As for Sherman's grades, it is well known that everybody does well at the top schools. Grade inflation there is out of control. As they say, the only thing harder than getting into an an an Ivy, is failing out.

While it is true that failing out of an Ivy is almost impossible, it's not due to grade inflation. In fact, the idea of grade inflation is a lie.

As an Ivy grad, I can assure you everyone works their asses off for every grade they receive and not everyone gets an A. However, there are lots of A's given simply because you're dealing with the cream of the crop, best of the best students.

Sounds like a serious case of selection bias, "because we are all so smart here (as validated by our admission) most everyone deserves an A." As for grade inflation, Princeton had to put a cap on the number of As professors were handing out. "Grade deflation" was not only not a lie, it was policy. It looks like now Princeton may reverse that policy after nearly a decade because it is "not consistent with our educational goals." And so the grade inflation continues.

Of course rationing out A's based on policy instead of granting the true grade that was earned is "not consistent with educational goals".

I am aware of the idea and study of "grade inflation" at selective schools. However, I am here to tell you that the A's are not handed out like candy on Halloween. They are earned. However, these highly selective Ivy Leagues--where very, very deeply intellectual people are always challenging the status quo--looked at the data and decided that it was worth looking at why so many A's were being given. Was it because the professors were lax? Were the classes not intellectually challenging? Or *gasp!* Was it because they'd only accepted the cream of the crop who'd spent their wholes lives making nothing less than straight A's in very competitive classes? Many have concluded the last, which is what I suspect caused Princeton to reverse it's policy.

Of course, the 'grade inflation' theory works well at soothing the hurt feelings and insecurities of those who didn't make it into the Big League.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:18:15 above wrote in part: " This was not the class of 2014. The nature of conversations changes as the senior year draws to an end. And the kids are just as excited to begin their new life as they are sad to part with old friends."

This is our current experience with our high school senior as well. Maybe it varies depending upon the high school you attend. Our child is in a relatively smaller, private school. Everyone in the class knows perfectly well who are the top students, middle students, and struggling students based on the rigor of the classes they have taken, their comments in those classes, peer review of exams and homework assignments, etc. When I attended public school, we knew who made the National Honor society as a junior, who didn't make it until senior year, and who didn't make it at all. In some privates, there is comparable group (cum laude). In smaller schools, almost everyone knows each other's business. This year, as students are accepted early decision/early action to schools -- and often when they are deferred or rejected as well -- almost all of them not only tell each other, they post it on their Facebook pages.

I leave it to others to debate the value of racial, ethnic or socio-economic status in the college acceptance game, but I assure you that the kids at least at our DC's school know a great deal about their relative academic strengths -- as well as, of course, who is a great athlete, musician, singer, robotics champion etc. The kids don't know who would be ranked number 4 vs 5 or 26 vs 27, but they have a good idea of what is going on. They know.

And NONE of that information has anything to do with official transcripts, what college admissions officers know for sure, and outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:18:15 above wrote in part: " This was not the class of 2014. The nature of conversations changes as the senior year draws to an end. And the kids are just as excited to begin their new life as they are sad to part with old friends."

This is our current experience with our high school senior as well. Maybe it varies depending upon the high school you attend. Our child is in a relatively smaller, private school. Everyone in the class knows perfectly well who are the top students, middle students, and struggling students based on the rigor of the classes they have taken, their comments in those classes, peer review of exams and homework assignments, etc. When I attended public school, we knew who made the National Honor society as a junior, who didn't make it until senior year, and who didn't make it at all. In some privates, there is comparable group (cum laude). In smaller schools, almost everyone knows each other's business. This year, as students are accepted early decision/early action to schools -- and often when they are deferred or rejected as well -- almost all of them not only tell each other, they post it on their Facebook pages.

I leave it to others to debate the value of racial, ethnic or socio-economic status in the college acceptance game, but I assure you that the kids at least at our DC's school know a great deal about their relative academic strengths -- as well as, of course, who is a great athlete, musician, singer, robotics champion etc. The kids don't know who would be ranked number 4 vs 5 or 26 vs 27, but they have a good idea of what is going on. They know.

If they don't know rank, they don't have a good idea of what is going on. Class rank is more solid and important than a 'hunch' about perceived academic strengths.

To that, I would like to re-emphasis the following questions to the poster who made the claim about all the minorities with more impressive acceptances in DC's class:

1. Did DC see the TRANSCRIPTS of these students?

2. Did DC see the APPLICATIONS/ESSAYS before they were submitted? A shoddy, last minute app with a weak essay is not as appealing as one that was well-thought out.

3. Does DC know what the students shared about themselves in the essays?

4. How many black/hispanic kids admitted they were accepted based on race? And exactly how did that conversation come up again ? And were those minority students in the admissions offices when those decisions were being made? Do they know how they stacked up against the entire applicant pool? Did those minority students have access to everyone's transcripts, essays, etc?

5. Since when have minority students been okay with...

You know what? I have been black all my life, and I can assure you that is NOT the kind of discussion a black child would have. They've likely spent much of their HS years feeling a bit odd from being the only black kid in the class. (Been there done that too. You become the poster child for every single stereotype the other kids have every had. The last stereotype you'd want to play into is the one of "You only got in cause you're black.) No minority student would be okay with thinking that, much less saying it. It's the white kids who love to talk about racial privilege. No other race does that. Blacks don't do it. Asians don't do it. And neither do Hispanics. Those are 3 groups that are SICK of being stereotypes--even the good ones. (Asian kids don't like the idea that they get straight A's because they're Asian.)

Of course the aforementioned are all rhetorical questions.

+a million. Thank you for your honest and straight forward response and telling it like it is. I can't stop smiling and nodding my head in total agreement.