Post rankings of DCPS - % of advanced students in reading and math

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was not impressed at all by these scores. In fact, they made me think that I have to get my daughter out of DCPS asap. They set low standards and they fail to meet even those.

If you read above, you'll see that DC actually uses a rigorous test. It was adapted from Massachusetts' excellent test. It's true that most DC schools are underperforming, and Rhee is here to fix that. But the schools that made the top 10 can compete with any school in the 'burbs. The tests and standards for "advanced" are different, but a student at Lafayette, Mann, Oyster, Janney, etc. is getting as good an education as the kids in VA and MD's top schools. I'm curious-- based upon your daughter's experience, as opposed to the test scores, do you think that your DCPS school is performing well?

Sorry -- are you suggesting that having 25-35% of advanced students is somehow comparable to having 60-75% of advanced students? Why? Are you saying the DCPS standardized test is so much more rigorous than the MCPS standardized test, that even though DCPS has much lower percentages of advanced scoring students the rigor of the test accounts for the difference? Unlikely, IMO, and no evidence to show such an assertion is true.

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Brookline has one of the best school systems in the state and is more diverse than Newton, Lexington, Concord, Wellesley, etc.--probably comparable to NWDC although not to DC as a whole. These are the percentages of students who are advanced/above proficient as of spring 2008:

GRADE 03 - READING 23
GRADE 03 - MATHEMATICS 37
GRADE 04 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS 17
GRADE 04 - MATHEMATICS 28
GRADE 05 - ENGLISH LANGUAGE ARTS 27
GRADE 05 - MATHEMATICS 40

http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/mcas/performance_level.aspx?linkid=32&orgcode=00460000&orgtypecode=5&

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was not impressed at all by these scores. In fact, they made me think that I have to get my daughter out of DCPS asap. They set low standards and they fail to meet even those.

If you read above, you'll see that DC actually uses a rigorous test. It was adapted from Massachusetts' excellent test. It's true that most DC schools are underperforming, and Rhee is here to fix that. But the schools that made the top 10 can compete with any school in the 'burbs. The tests and standards for "advanced" are different, but a student at Lafayette, Mann, Oyster, Janney, etc. is getting as good an education as the kids in VA and MD's top schools. I'm curious-- based upon your daughter's experience, as opposed to the test scores, do you think that your DCPS school is performing well?

Sorry -- are you suggesting that having 25-35% of advanced students is somehow comparable to having 60-75% of advanced students? Why? Are you saying the DCPS standardized test is so much more rigorous than the MCPS standardized test, that even though DCPS has much lower percentages of advanced scoring students the rigor of the test accounts for the difference? Unlikely, IMO, and no evidence to show such an assertion is true.

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

The point is, if DC defines "advanced" as a score of 80 on a challenging test, and MCPS defines "advanced" as a score of 65 on a less challenging test-- which is possible under NCLB, then the % of students scoring "advanced" is meaningless in comparing the two. It means that one district sets a lower bar for the label. That's all.

In answer to the MA question-- I checked the Cambridge schools, which are among the best and where I did special projects when I was in law school up there. The scores are comparable or lower than the top DC schools. Not necessarily meaningful if they defined "advanced" and "proficient" differently.

[Anonymous]

Cambridge schools are not really among the best; while they are getting better, you still see many people moving to the suburbs as their children approach school age. Some interesting similarities with DC, though. (Now, if we could only get their visitor parking program.)

[Anonymous]

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

I wouldn't expect to find too many takers on that bet. Not because they believe they'd win, but because they're financially invested in not even considering the question. When you're paying $25K a year for private or you've decided to live in the suburbs, you are financially and emotionally invested in believing DCPS is a terrible choice. No amount of convincing is going to teach otherwise (especially when you aren't knowledgeable enough to interpret the skewed statistics correctly anyway)!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

I wouldn't expect to find too many takers on that bet. Not because they believe they'd win, but because they're financially invested in not even considering the question. When you're paying $25K a year for private or you've decided to live in the suburbs, you are financially and emotionally invested in believing DCPS is a terrible choice. No amount of convincing is going to teach otherwise (especially when you aren't knowledgeable enough to interpret the skewed statistics correctly anyway)!

Oh snap!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

I didn't think the point was really whether the kids at Mann and Rosemary Hills were interchangeable in terms of their socioeconomic background and intrinsic "brightness", but rather what academic opportunities they have in school? If a child enters third grade already knowing third grade math at the start of the year, do they get to do fourth grade math (or fifth even?) or do they have to sit thru 3rd again or do they just get "enrichment" once a week? If a kid at Mann is reading more than 2 years above grade level what happens? Do they stay with their class and read the same books as everyone else, or do they get a reading group appropriate to their reading level? Do kids at Mann who are several grades ahead in reading and math get an opportunity to apply to a center where they can be grouped and taught with other kids who are similar in age and academic level? What happens to kids who are way out of level in DCPS? Anyone ever heard of a kid in DCPS in junior high school being allowed to take part of their course load at a senior high school because it's more academically appropriate for them?

I don't go to Mann, so I don't know the answers to these questions. But, they are the kind of questions I would ask myself if I was trying to choose between school systems for a bright child. Does anybody out there?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

I didn't think the point was really whether the kids at Mann and Rosemary Hills were interchangeable in terms of their socioeconomic background and intrinsic "brightness", but rather what academic opportunities they have in school? If a child enters third grade already knowing third grade math at the start of the year, do they get to do fourth grade math (or fifth even?) or do they have to sit thru 3rd again or do they just get "enrichment" once a week? If a kid at Mann is reading more than 2 years above grade level what happens? Do they stay with their class and read the same books as everyone else, or do they get a reading group appropriate to their reading level? Do kids at Mann who are several grades ahead in reading and math get an opportunity to apply to a center where they can be grouped and taught with other kids who are similar in age and academic level? What happens to kids who are way out of level in DCPS? Anyone ever heard of a kid in DCPS in junior high school being allowed to take part of their course load at a senior high school because it's more academically appropriate for them?

I don't go to Mann, so I don't know the answers to these questions. But, they are the kind of questions I would ask myself if I was trying to choose between school systems for a bright child. Does anybody out there?

I've spoken with Mann's principal about this in the course of my school search. Yes, early readers get appropriate instruction and separate books. Yes, there is an opportunity for advanced instruction in the other areas. I can't answer the middle school question, but the middle schools are adopting magnet-type programs.

The proof is in the final "product." Students from the top DC elementary schools do as well as their MoCo and even independent school peers in the private schools that many attend after elementary. And there are many Murch, Lafayette, Oyster, Mann, Key, Janney graduates performing well in college now.

I think that many people just assume that they won't be able to find what their child needs in DCPS. In reality, people who have the resources to shop for school districts generally have the resources to get the most out of DCPS. The staff are surprisingly helpful and responsive.

[Anonymous]

The proof is in the final "product." Students from the top DC elementary schools do as well as their MoCo and even independent school peers in the private schools that many attend after elementary. And there are many Murch, Lafayette, Oyster, Mann, Key, Janney graduates performing well in college now.

I'm the Wii bettor, and I also agree with this quote. Your GDSs and Sidwells aren't accepting Mann and Lafayette graduates at 7th grade because they feel sorry for them, sitting in DCPS all those years poor things. It's because the kids can do the work. Some of it is certainly innate intelligence, and by definition (aka entrance exams), some of it is acquired knowledge. Acquired in DCPS.

[Anonymous]

What are the demographics of Janney, the top school? Is it identical demographics to the top elementary school in Maryland ranking or Virginia?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

IMO, the difference between DCPS and MCPS is substantial, and I say that having had kids in DCPS and MCPS. In an MCPS school where 60% of the class is scoring advanced, the entire pitch of the class is higher. In our DCPS school (one of those on the "top ten"), the teacher had to spend most of the time teaching to the basic and proficient level. Our child missed a lot this way. The opportunity for appropriate academic challenge is much greater in MCPS than DCPS.

This is interesting. I would bet my Wii that the student body of Mann, probably Key, is every bit as bright and accomplished as the student body of Rosemary Hills. I have no empirical evidence on which to base this -- nobody does -- just anecdotal: the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Mann" are interchangeable with the children of lawyers/lobbyists/doctors/editors in group "Rosemary." The former group is, I bet, not shortchanged by dint of residing in the District-DCPS.

I wouldn't expect to find too many takers on that bet. Not because they believe they'd win, but because they're financially invested in not even considering the question. When you're paying $25K a year for private or you've decided to live in the suburbs, you are financially and emotionally invested in believing DCPS is a terrible choice. No amount of convincing is going to teach otherwise (especially when you aren't knowledgeable enough to interpret the skewed statistics correctly anyway)!

And, you, do you view yourself as not invested just because you have remained in DC? I meet many parents who are heavily invested in the city, invested enough to align their children's educational interests with their own career and social interests. Parents who are too urban and hip to live in the suburbs. parents who wouldn't subject their kids to the architectural boredom of the suburbs. Parents who believe so much in public education they wouldn't do anything else for their child, even if it might be better for the kid. Parents who bought in the city in the past few years and now can not sell for enough to cover their mortgage to get out even though another school would be better for their child. Parents who don't want or have the extra time to spend on their commute from their very busy job in the city to get home to the suburbs at a reasonable hour to see their child. Parents who simply don't want to end up in the suburbs like their own parents because it would mean they are aging and really not any more different or special than anyone else.

Your attitude about how other parents are making a choice for the suburbs or private school because they are financially or socially invested is a snotty self-rationalization of its own....

There is certainly no evidence to suggest that DCPS is better than many private and suburban options, some evidence that some DCPS schools are equal to some suburban and private experiences, and some evidence to suggest that some DCPS grads go on to have perfectly fine lives in terms of academics, social life and career, although whether that happens because of or in spite of DCPS education is unknown (as it is for other public or private).

What choice any of us makes is heavily influenced by the "investment" we have in some ideas which may or may not be true -- urban is better than suburban (or viceversa), bright kids don't need anything special (or they do), bright kids need to be with regular kids to develop socially (or not), rich people are snotty (or not), selectivism is an anathema in a democratic society (or the cause of our greatness), that our kids much be challenged academically (or learn to challenge themselves), whatever.....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This has more to do with size than anything else. Janney will have a larger share than Lafayette or Mann because it's so much larger. Not nearly as important as the share of students within the school performing at that level.

The percentages do represent the share of students within the school performing at the advanced level. (sigh). The size of the school population has no effect on the ranking. (try telling that to the pro-PPP cabal at Janney)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I though the straight % comparisons were interesting. In this forum people frequently ask about MoCo vs. top DCPS schools. The top schools in MD and Virginia have 70%+ advanced while our top schools have 36%. Even in somewhat homogenous schools like Key and Mann. I think that is interesing. I am not a statistician by any stretch...so is that significant?

I was wondering the same thing. Also, is the SOL the same in all schools or does DC's differ from MD and VA and they from each other?

No-DCPS uses a standardizing testing system that is identical to the one used in Massachusettts. It was introduced by Clifford Janey Rhee's predecessor. She has not changed it as far as I know.

[Anonymous]

No-DCPS uses a standardizing testing system that is identical to the one used in Massachusettts. It was introduced by Clifford Janey Rhee's predecessor. She has not changed it as far as I know.

Actually, Massachusetts spends the money to produce brand new tests every year. Although DCPS based the instructional standards on those from Massachusetts, only one test was created per grade, and they have been administering that SAME test every year.