Would you say this is abusive?

[Anonymous]

OP again...

Since some social workers and counselors have responded, I would like to ask WHAT can be done when children continue to speak to parents disrespectfully, tattle, call siblings name, etc - -despite my best efforts at modeling, getting down on eye level and explaining what is expected, setting limits and enforcing them with timeouts, etc? Esp my DS3 who definitely doesn't associate the timeout with the infraction? His level of understanding may be quite basic, as I can answer his question (can I have candy?) and yet he will continue to ask it incessantly for the next 4 hours, as if he has Alzheimers! I don't know what to do with him.

[Anonymous]

OP -- I think you raise some good questions. How do children learn not to be disrespectful? Parents of course need to set good examples and they need to help guide their children to making proper choices. But there are times when children blatently do things they know are wrong. So what are some logical consequences?

As far as the pastor story. I think a lot of people here are jumping to conclusions about the age of the children in question. In addition it reminds me of a story my friend told me. Her elementary school age daughter was using dirty language and they were having trouble breaking her of this habit. Finally, my friend told her daughter that she had a choice of doing a timeout or getting her mouth washed out with soap. Her daughter chose the soap route, because she knew the punishment would not take as long as the timeout! I am sure this same child would chose tabasco sauce over soap, since it would be even quicker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again...

Since some social workers and counselors have responded, I would like to ask WHAT can be done when children continue to speak to parents disrespectfully, tattle, call siblings name, etc - -despite my best efforts at modeling, getting down on eye level and explaining what is expected, setting limits and enforcing them with timeouts, etc? Esp my DS3 who definitely doesn't associate the timeout with the infraction? His level of understanding may be quite basic, as I can answer his question (can I have candy?) and yet he will continue to ask it incessantly for the next 4 hours, as if he has Alzheimers! I don't know what to do with him.

I'm a social worker, but I am a parent of 3 too. My middle child was exactly the same at 3. It drove me nuts. So this is what I ended up doing. If I answered his question and he keep asking, I'd respond clearly 2 or 3 times "I said, Yes, you can have chocolate milk after dinner. Do not ask me again or you will not get it." If he keep asking over and over... I'd look at him and say "Okay... you are not listening to me, so you are not getting chocolate milk now because you did not listen." and then I'd stick that. It took weeks for him to wrap his brain around it and make himself stop asking over and over. Being consistant seemed to be the only thing that changed that behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO it's abusive. The Washington Post did a story on this a few years ago. Lisa Whelchel (Blair from The Facts of Life) is an advocate of "saucing".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52899-2004Aug9.html

As I recall, Lisa Whelchel was a holy roller 20 years ago. Don't know if she is now, but some things you need to use some common sense and not follow what your pastor or minister tells you. Jim Jones told his flock in Jonestown, Guyana to drink the laced cool-aid and look what happened.

[Anonymous]

As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

Isn't locking a child in a closet considered abusive? I understand that there needs to be some discipline from the parents, but it seems like this would create psychological issues later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

Isn't locking a child in a closet considered abusive? I understand that there needs to be some discipline from the parents, but it seems like this would create psychological issues later.

Not everything that could cause psychological issues is abusive in the eyes of the law. I have a friend who is a social worker in WVA and she said they have parents that lock their child in a closet as a form of time out and the state doesn't see that alone as a problem or abuse. Putting hot sauce on your child's tongue to me is stupid, but it's not abuse anymore than washing their mouth out with soap. I know parents that still wash their children's mouths out with soap and they are loving parents but believe this to be a good way to discipline.

[Anonymous]

I'm sure this won't be popular, but to me your entire parenting style is off kilter if you have to resort to "saucing" or "soaping" or other kinds of physical correction.

Think of how you would feel if this were done to you, and remember, you are not just correcting the 4 year old in front of you, you are also correcting the 30 year old that will grow up recalling that this is the "best" you could do as a parent.

Reward positive behavior, model positive behavior, and ignore/isolate bad behavior. Be clear, be consistent and have a sense of humor too. Laughter and honesty go a long way to handling children.

Children do not do things that they blatantly think are wrong. They do whatever they can to get attention, good or bad.

[Anonymous]

OP, try the book 1-2-3 Magic. I have found it very effective for stopping "obnoxious behaviors," such as the badgering you describe.

[Anonymous]

to 13:09, amen!! you are right!

to the "social worker": just because something is not against the law doesn't mean it's not abusive. sheesh! i don't think the OP was asking about the legality of hot saucing. she wanted to know if it was abusive. any social worker worth his/her salt would recognize that it is piss poor parenting to put hot sauce on a child's tongue. it's not even remotely close to soap (which is gross and humiliating, but not painful). i hope you aren't a social worker in DC, although that would explain a lot!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

Isn't locking a child in a closet considered abusive? I understand that there needs to be some discipline from the parents, but it seems like this would create psychological issues later.

Not everything that could cause psychological issues is abusive in the eyes of the law. I have a friend who is a social worker in WVA and she said they have parents that lock their child in a closet as a form of time out and the state doesn't see that alone as a problem or abuse. Putting hot sauce on your child's tongue to me is stupid, but it's not abuse anymore than washing their mouth out with soap. I know parents that still wash their children's mouths out with soap and they are loving parents but believe this to be a good way to discipline.

There was also a time when children were smacked around and whipped with a belt by their parents and the law looked the other way. Maybe some laws need to evolve to include protection from this hot sauce method of punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

Isn't locking a child in a closet considered abusive? I understand that there needs to be some discipline from the parents, but it seems like this would create psychological issues later.

Not everything that could cause psychological issues is abusive in the eyes of the law. I have a friend who is a social worker in WVA and she said they have parents that lock their child in a closet as a form of time out and the state doesn't see that alone as a problem or abuse. Putting hot sauce on your child's tongue to me is stupid, but it's not abuse anymore than washing their mouth out with soap. I know parents that still wash their children's mouths out with soap and they are loving parents but believe this to be a good way to discipline.

In response to the follow-up question: when I get that kind of attitude, I just say "I don't hear people when they talk like that" and then go about their business until I hear "may I please..." After a few times they get sick of having to take two tries at communicatng with me, and proceed straight to reasonable talk.

FWIW, I don't think that the pastor's approach constitutes abuse, but I'd say that a physical response to things you don't like is part of a mind-set that can also include abuse. Your child probably won't be scarred for life and no one is going to call CPS on you, but do you really want your child to think that reasonable grownups do things that hurt in order to get what they want?



There was also a time when children were smacked around and whipped with a belt by their parents and the law looked the other way. Maybe some laws need to evolve to include protection from this hot sauce method of punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a social worker I see things that would make most DCUM heads spin and there is very little we can do about. I see parents beat children, burn them with cigarettes, call them all kinds of names, leave babies unattended for hours.. the list goes on and on. Our policy is to investigate, remove the child if it's warranted, and then "train" the parent with the ultimate goal of returning the child. With my own kids, I don't use corporal punishment, but that's not how a good part parents behave. We as parents have no right to judge what another parents finds appropriate. There are people who spank, yell, lock kids in closets and to me it's horrible, but not always illegal. Putting hot sauce on a child's tongue is mild in comparison and not illegal or abuse in DC. Would I ever do it? NO. Could I remove a child from a parent who used this method? NO.

Isn't locking a child in a closet considered abusive? I understand that there needs to be some discipline from the parents, but it seems like this would create psychological issues later.

Not everything that could cause psychological issues is abusive in the eyes of the law. I have a friend who is a social worker in WVA and she said they have parents that lock their child in a closet as a form of time out and the state doesn't see that alone as a problem or abuse. Putting hot sauce on your child's tongue to me is stupid, but it's not abuse anymore than washing their mouth out with soap. I know parents that still wash their children's mouths out with soap and they are loving parents but believe this to be a good way to discipline.

In response to the follow-up question: when I get that kind of attitude, I just say "I don't hear people when they talk like that" and then go about their business until I hear "may I please..." After a few times they get sick of having to take two tries at communicatng with me, and proceed straight to reasonable talk.

FWIW, I don't think that the pastor's approach constitutes abuse, but I'd say that a physical response to things you don't like is part of a mind-set that can also include abuse. Your child probably won't be scarred for life and no one is going to call CPS on you, but do you really want your child to think that reasonable grownups do things that hurt in order to get what they want?



There was also a time when children were smacked around and whipped with a belt by their parents and the law looked the other way. Maybe some laws need to evolve to include protection from this hot sauce method of punishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, try the book 1-2-3 Magic. I have found it very effective for stopping "obnoxious behaviors," such as the badgering you describe.

The funny thing about 123 magic is that moms start counting over. Or they stay on 1 for 2 minutes. If you don't follow through after 3 with a serious consequence than they will start tuning you out.

[Anonymous]

"Laws" against specific types of punishment? Oh Please. I can see the hot sauce lobby getting onto this one now.