Pyramid of Lies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Case in point to OP. the documentary evidence shows nothing indicating the person in question had ANY gang relation. The court filings and statements indicate NO gang relations. yet they go on Fox News and on social media and claim MS-13, and all of the other stuff. Just flat out lying to the viewership.

I deliberately didn't go into detail of the actual FACTS in my OP because it doesn't matter what the truth is, they just come back with a lie.

At first, on DCUM, I tried to engage in an earnest discussion as I would with my family. But they simply do not engage - they just change the subject or answer with a lie. Then I tried calling them on lies, but that doesn't matter, they just repeat the lie verbatim. It's like debating with a 12-year-old who thinks he's clever.

For what it's worth: I am not a lawyer but I have read all the 2019 material I could find on Kilmar's two legal proceedings:
1) asylum case (denied because, when he arrived as a child, he didn't apply within a year) and withholding from removal (granted) and
2) the immigration bond hearing

Steven Miller and co. are using the bond hearing along with the appeal as the basis for their LIE.

For those who care about the truth:
This hearing was NOT a legal proceeding to determine gang membership.

The immigration judge's denial of bond was based on information from a police gang field interview sheet that identified him as a "verified" active MS-13 gang member. The judge used this information as a reason to believe he posed a danger or flight risk, thus denying bond.

We must remember that: The standard of evidence for bond decisions is very low. All an immigration judge need to think is that the information might be credible to deny bond. (I won't go into the fact that immigration judges work for the DOJ and act as delegates of the Attorney General, but this fact is relevant)

In the appeal, the appellate court upheld the denial of bond.

Shouting from the mountaintops: Bond hearings are about detention. They do not, in any way, investigate or determine issues like gang membership.
The claim that he was twice found to be a member of MS-13 is a LIE twice over.

Moreover, when a federal district judge (does not work for DOJ, requires much higher burden of proof) looked into the argument of his gang membership she wrote:

"The record reflects the government’s continued reliance on a vague, uncorroborated allegation that he was once in the MS-13 street gang, an assertion that appears to have little to no evidence to support it."

So even if the government's argument were true -- it is not! -- a more recent, more impartial judge who requires a higher burden of proof , dismissed the idea that he is in a gang.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is also interesting is that the people who believe these lies (see some of the responses above just parroting RW talking points-it's a script they've been fed) is that they require no proof for the lies they happily swallow and yet reject actual proof of the truth when presented to them. Some folks are in for a penny in for a pound when it comes to trump. To admit they are wrong would be to admit they have been fooled, played and at worst made fun of. Therefore they dig their heels in and are willing to make pretzels out of themselves jettisoning logic and critical thinking because their fragile egos cannot admit they were simply wrong. The massive amount of disinformation spread by their chosen "news" sources doesn't help. They simply do not realize that many people out their are happy to capitalize on their blind stupidity and unwillingness to learn.

In the rare instances where I try to talk to my mom about something political, her most used response is "I haven't seen anything about that." If I dare suggest perhaps it's because she's only watching one news outlet, she gets mad and shuts down the conversation. I don't know how to get through to her and other MAGA people. If I hear of something that's different from a news story I saw, I check different sources to figure out what's true. I can't wrap my brain around the mindset of "well, I never heard that so it must not be true."

What I’ve realized is they all have Dad issues (stern father) OR he is their new Jesus. I’m shocked at whom in my family and friends is blinded by the “glory” gold-splattered like vomit around the White House Trump

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is also interesting is that the people who believe these lies (see some of the responses above just parroting RW talking points-it's a script they've been fed) is that they require no proof for the lies they happily swallow and yet reject actual proof of the truth when presented to them. Some folks are in for a penny in for a pound when it comes to trump. To admit they are wrong would be to admit they have been fooled, played and at worst made fun of. Therefore they dig their heels in and are willing to make pretzels out of themselves jettisoning logic and critical thinking because their fragile egos cannot admit they were simply wrong. The massive amount of disinformation spread by their chosen "news" sources doesn't help. They simply do not realize that many people out their are happy to capitalize on their blind stupidity and unwillingness to learn.

You also can’t discount the fear factor. MAGA is generally afraid of change. And because they don’t understand it, they are suspicious of it. They are positive they are being shortchanged somehow. People who dress differently and eat differently are also scary. And they don’t like being told that they have to keep up with it all. The transgender societal acceptance just pushed them over the edge.

And all of this is exacerbated by the MAGA/FOX drumbeat telling they are justified to be angry about change. So Trump is busy undoing all they change and they are thrilled.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is also interesting is that the people who believe these lies (see some of the responses above just parroting RW talking points-it's a script they've been fed) is that they require no proof for the lies they happily swallow and yet reject actual proof of the truth when presented to them. Some folks are in for a penny in for a pound when it comes to trump. To admit they are wrong would be to admit they have been fooled, played and at worst made fun of. Therefore they dig their heels in and are willing to make pretzels out of themselves jettisoning logic and critical thinking because their fragile egos cannot admit they were simply wrong. The massive amount of disinformation spread by their chosen "news" sources doesn't help. They simply do not realize that many people out their are happy to capitalize on their blind stupidity and unwillingness to learn.

In the rare instances where I try to talk to my mom about something political, her most used response is "I haven't seen anything about that." If I dare suggest perhaps it's because she's only watching one news outlet, she gets mad and shuts down the conversation. I don't know how to get through to her and other MAGA people. If I hear of something that's different from a news story I saw, I check different sources to figure out what's true. I can't wrap my brain around the mindset of "well, I never heard that so it must not be true."

Return the accountability back where it belongs, on them. State clearly that the reason they can’t be bothered to hear from anyone els, or even be open minded to consider another viewpoint is because they are AFRAID. . Afraid they’ll be proven wrong. Afraid they’ll have to face their own insecurities. Afraid they’ll have to work in being true Christian or whatever faith they believe and not just rely on performance.

If their views and faith can’t stand up to scrutiny then they should admit it lies. And if they can’t than at least admit to themselves they are cowards.

[Anonymous]

Echo chamber.

[Anonymous]

I honestly think this has to start from the bottom. Members of congress have abdicated their authority and looking the other way to rubber stamp in all and bring in sweeping change. Change is good don’t get me wrong but not when the people we elected are NOT doing their job on either side of the aisle. Start at the state while continuing to demand accountability from your a house Rep and state senators. Dems have to be able to figure out how to pivot and not just say we have to wait bc we are in the minority. Last I checked minority rules in the senate ..they can do more and the House well they have to be creative and no one should give arms a pass bc they are in charge ..it doesn’t mean roll over and let them steamroll checks and balances

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason that this works is that the majority of people don’t read or fact check information.

And they only trust Fox News, which won't report the truth. If Fox can't spin the story to make Trump look good or to blame it on Biden, they simply don't report it.

What I don't understand is why so many people are hesitant to call out public officials spewing lies during press conferences. Some guy said, "In 2017 Obama did XYZ" and the anchor made a face because she knew Obama wasn't president in 2017 and the person who had actually done that thing was Trump, but she never corrected him.

Another time Leavitt said the only person to blame for the Covid-19 shutdowns was Biden. No one in the press corps corrected her that the shutdown happened under Trump. Trump gave the orders early 2020 to shut everything down. Biden didn't take office until 2021 (when he started correcting Trump's mess).

It would help a lot if those people got corrected right then and there in the moment. But no, we just get more sound bites for the MAGAs to use online of some talking head incorrectly saying, "Obama did this in 2017 to screw the US!" that get shared thousands of times and taken as fact by the smooth-brained.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2 judges and the arresting officers from PG County stated he was MS 13.

I tried calling HR at MS 13 to confirm, but they wouldnt answer

Just for the record, both of the judges relied on a report by a PG County detective who was later suspended due to mishandling investigative information. His report said that Abrego García was a member of MS-13 because he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hoody and hat and because of information from a confidential informer. The informer said that Abrego García was the leader of a MS-13 chapter in Western New York, a place that Abrego García has never lived. That accusation was made in 2019 and, since then, Abrego García has done nothing to suggest that he is a gang member. He is an apprentice in the building trades union.

Look at this group of terrorist supporters:

Powerful. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2 judges and the arresting officers from PG County stated he was MS 13.

I tried calling HR at MS 13 to confirm, but they wouldnt answer

Wasn't the arresting officer later indicted for selling secret information for sex? Mr. Credibility there.

https://newrepublic.com/article/194010/kilmar-abrego-garcia-case-trump-deported-error-another-hit

total lack of credibility. And then people wonder why police departments and training should be reformed.

I didn't know this. Wow. Poor Kilmar, an innocent man up against corruption, incompetence, and a bit of pure evil at the top.

[Anonymous]

Confirmation-bias only, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Echo chamber.

OP, here. I have tried to engage in earnest discussions. I have been respectful and have searched for the truth. I have listened to what the Trump administration, Karoline Leavitt, and posters on DCUM have said and done my own research. I want the truth.

If you don't grant me the same respect, how can we have dialogue?

There are many complex difficult questions in this world, but this is not one of them. The Trump administration sent someone who is innocent, who is NOT a gang member, who has nothing to do with MS-13 to prison full of people who are credible threats to his safety in a country they were not allowed to send him. Even after acknowledging the mistake, they are doing nothing to rectify it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Confirmation-bias only, please.

Sorry your made-up MAGA bs is getting deleted 😢

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My family growing up was pretty even split of Republicans, Democrats, Independents. I grew up genuinely believing that there are different approaches and philosophies and priorities but ultimately most people have the same objectives and the same level of investment in the nation's future, and probably the same percentage of heroes and zeros on each side.

Fast forward to 2025: I have been listening to Steven Miller and some of the higher IQ people running the show in the Trump administration and am horrified to see how LYING is the key part of the strategy. (Trump has shown his cluelessness over and over -- never more than in the meeting with Bukele when he asked Steven Miller to confirm that the government had won the Supreme Court hearing 9 to 0, like this is a bizarro world soccer game, and ST Miller lied to his clueless face and said yes -- Trump is obviously not in charge.)

Case in Point: Administration thinks a big publicity stunt will terrify immigrants in the US, Americans, and the rest of the world. Goal: create terror, get the unwanted to flee or never come, and rule Americans by fear.

The administration starts out looking for loopholes and disingenous applications of laws, assumes that we are all racists and indifferent and won't care about a bunch of Hispanics, or that a US president makes deals with human rights abusing dictators. It doesn't matter to them that over 90% of this group Venezuelans have no criminal records, that many came to the US legally, and that many are awaiting asylum hearings. The geniuses at the top decide, just focus on tattoos.

When we do notice that the administration has disobeyed the rule of law in a number of ways, they simply start LYING. They pivot on the spot like sociopaths. These are not complex lies or even close to the truth. They are just fabrications.

The less intelligent, who lack all critical thinking (Kristi Noem, Claudia McGlaughlin, Karoline Leavitt, etc), then repeat the lies loudly and confidently.

FOX News et al. present this gang's words as facts and so lies diffuse rapidly through the country.

Suddenly there is a new very loud narrative competing for the public's mind who could simply use Google to discredit or verify.

DHUM, how do we combat this pyramid of lies??? Naive as I am, I have tried using reasoning and facts with posters on DCUM and, when proven wrong, they routinely change the subject, deflect, or simply repeat the lie. The people at the top of the pyramid may be sociopaths, those on the way down powerful fools, and the rest followers. I don't know how to play this game when they totally changed the rules!

The path of least resistance to fixing this problem and/or preventing it from happening again is for there to be competent leadership in an opposition party to the party led by lying idiots. There would never be a Trump-like person in power if there were opposition led by a Reagan, GHWB, Clinton, or Obama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
DHUM, how do we combat this pyramid of lies???

Good question.

I think it helps to try to remain civil. It’s much easier for a person to tune out when they are offended. Easier said than done when they themselves are being offensive, I know. But I do think a person can be confident that the high road reply is more likely to leave a constructive impression on others, both offenders or bystanders, than the low.

I think it also helps to admit when things could’ve been done better by the Dems. Perhaps Harris’s worst campaign moment was not being able to offer anything she would’ve done differently. In general, people are less defensive about and more trusting of an opposing view when there’s a willingness to acknowledge mistakes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
DHUM, how do we combat this pyramid of lies???

Good question.

I think it helps to try to remain civil. It’s much easier for a person to tune out when they are offended. Easier said than done when they themselves are being offensive, I know. But I do think a person can be confident that the high road reply is more likely to leave a constructive impression on others, both offenders or bystanders, than the low.

I think it also helps to admit when things could’ve been done better by the Dems. Perhaps Harris’s worst campaign moment was not being able to offer anything she would’ve done differently. In general, people are less defensive about and more trusting of an opposing view when there’s a willingness to acknowledge mistakes.

Not PP, but taking the high road is what landed us with Trump.